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Posted on Fri, Feb 13 2015 00:57
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 448

Hi,

 

I noticed that not much Film Music/Soundtracks are being posted on this forum section. But rather more emulations of classical, and some Baroque style emulations seem to be dominant here. 

 

It would be nice to hear more soundtrack/film music demo examples on this section of the forum. 

 

Is this due to the nature of VSL libraries, or more to do with the end-user's interests, and focus on this forum ? Since I feel VSL libraries are quite flexible to produce great soundtrack/film music tracks. 

 

Thanks,

Muziksculp 

Posted on Sat, Feb 14 2015 12:24
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1107

This is largely because the VSL is capable of simulating serious symphonic music with a great variety of orchestral colours and nuances. Current film music is mostly locomotive string patterns, punctuated by deafening noises and brass pads - all easily achievable and believable with even cheap libraries. That is in those instances where there is no choir belting out irrelevant latin or other phrases.

 

Indirectly, you can infer that if VSL can simulate Beethoven, Stravinsky, and Debussy convincingly, it can do modern film with its eyes closed. Maybe not as loud as other libraries can, as it is intended to simulate real-life orchestral playing.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Sat, Feb 14 2015 13:55
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

Originally Posted by: muziksculp Go to Quoted Post

Is this due to the nature of VSL libraries, or more to do with the end-user's interests, and focus on this forum ?

I think it's more the latter.

As we know, time and budget are huge factors in TV/games, while the music that's required often isn't more than "moody underscore". This is definitely one of the reasons why  a lot of media composers like to use "out of the box" cinematic sounding, ensemble - or even phrase-based libraries that enable them them to throw together "cues" very quickly.

Of course you could do all these things "by hand" with dedicated orchestral libraries. But it would just take you longer. You're expected to deliver something "fitting" and make it quick. The "out of the box" libraries are obviously a good choice for that kind of work. The downside is that you can't do anything with them that they're not "meant" to do.

I'd say that VSL is probably the library with the most detail and flexibility. And also probably the one with the most intricate workflow and steepest learning curve. Also definitely not one of those libraries that sound like a Hollywood score the moment you hit a random chord on the keyboard. What you put in is what you get out. That's probably something that doesn't make it THE obvious choice for media composition where time is a much more important factor than detail or quality.

I also think it's a matter of marketing to a certain extent. VSL has this somewhat "serious" appeal to it - you know, the cool blue look of the interface and website, the whole traditional, Vienna, cradle of european orchestra tradition kind of thing. The libraries are called "Woodwinds 1" or "Chamber Strings", whereas products from some other companies may be called "Drums of Hell", "Emotional Voices" or "Sentimental Strings". I guess someone who's interested in emulating Prokofiev as convincingly as they can will probably instinctively look into VSL before considering bying the "Boisterous Braam" low brass ensemble, if you know what I mean.

Not saying that there's anything wrong with any of that, mind you. I love my VSL stuff as much as I love the "Awesome Explosion"-libraries that I own and use. :)

Posted on Sun, Feb 15 2015 03:57
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 448

Originally Posted by: Errikos Go to Quoted Post

This is largely because the VSL is capable of simulating serious symphonic music with a great variety of orchestral colours and nuances. Current film music is mostly locomotive string patterns, punctuated by deafening noises and brass pads - all easily achievable and believable with even cheap libraries. That is in those instances where there is no choir belting out irrelevant latin or other phrases.

 

Indirectly, you can infer that if VSL can simulate Beethoven, Stravinsky, and Debussy convincingly, it can do modern film with its eyes closed. Maybe not as loud as other libraries can, as it is intended to simulate real-life orchestral playing.

There is a lot of sophisticatedly orchestrated film music these days, yes, there are some of that locomotive string patterns, ...etc. sounding scores, but on the other hand, there are a lot of very interesting scores. 

 

I personally enjoy listening to sophisticated orchestral film scores more than traditional orchestral composers works. Which I have heard over the years. That's why I was asking why not much film/soundtrack music is being posted on this forum. Actually, I would even go one step further, and say that Orchestral Film Music is the new generation of Classical Music. It is the genre that is pushing the bounderies of Classical Music to the next level. It is very exciting to listen to, and I feel the emotional impact some of the later soundtracks bring to our ears and hearts is a very rewarding, and rich experience. With or without watching the visual media. 

 

Cheers,

Muziksculp 

Posted on Sun, Feb 15 2015 17:56
by icecubeman
Joined on Fri, Nov 09 2012, Nitra, Posts 201

Originally Posted by: Errikos Go to Quoted Post

This is largely because the VSL is capable of simulating serious symphonic music with a great variety of orchestral colours and nuances. Current film music is mostly locomotive string patterns, punctuated by deafening noises and brass pads - all easily achievable and believable with even cheap libraries. That is in those instances where there is no choir belting out irrelevant latin or other phrases.

 

Indirectly, you can infer that if VSL can simulate Beethoven, Stravinsky, and Debussy convincingly, it can do modern film with its eyes closed. Maybe not as loud as other libraries can, as it is intended to simulate real-life orchestral playing.

I cannot say it better.

Posted on Sun, Feb 15 2015 17:59
by icecubeman
Joined on Fri, Nov 09 2012, Nitra, Posts 201

Originally Posted by: muziksculp Go to Quoted Post

Actually, I would even go one step further, and say that Orchestral Film Music is the new generation of Classical Music. It is the genre that is pushing the bounderies of Classical Music to the next level.

You must be kidding man!

Posted on Sun, Feb 15 2015 20:56
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 448

Originally Posted by: icecubeman Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: muziksculp Go to Quoted Post

Actually, I would even go one step further, and say that Orchestral Film Music is the new generation of Classical Music. It is the genre that is pushing the bounderies of Classical Music to the next level.

You must be kidding man!

No,   I'm not. 

Posted on Sun, Feb 15 2015 23:35
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I guess that it would depend on why people post music. Most film music is garbage, in terms of music qualtiy. In fact by definition it can't be first rate music, or there would be no need for the film. So, what would be the point in posting film music? How interesting is it to hear interminable drivel that all sounds the same played by a sample library, when it's bad enough hearing it with top session players? Not very, in my view.

So we come back to the question of why people post music? If that can be answered, then the OPs question may be answered as well.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 02:04
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1107

Well, I had to wait 10-11 years but it is rewarding to see Daryl allowing himself to temporarily stray from his British cool and tell it like it is. My! Underscores must really be getting even more vapid than before - if that is possible -  to get that kind of "rise" out of him...

JimmyHellfire elaborated upon what I said articulately, entertainingly, and Icecubeman punctuated it. I am going to add a couple more things, only because Muzicsculp is not alone in his misconception (which in my opinion drew DG's indignation), but is a member of a prodigious population of Platonic cave-dwellers (no offense intended).

Firstly, film music (the early, great film music), spun out of concert music as an offshoot from one of its branches (programmatic music), and developed in tandem with the rest of the tree. It is not its continuation.

Secondly, most - if not all of film orchestrations derive from concert music (past and present), and only a small part of it at that. Even the electronic inclusions derive from the tiniest of regions of the serious electronic music universe. And why shouldn't they? It's only film music; it's not Mozart.

However, one does not encounter much modern concert or electronic music (real EM, not dance inspired) outside of tertiary education, so it is understandable that most people of good intentions can arrive to such uninformed conclusions such as Muzicsculp's, frustrating for some of us. The same goes for musicianship, harmony, polyphony, form, range, variety, taste, ......

Such a pity, if only all those people knew how much could be added to their pallettes through some serious inquiry into serious music. Alas, this is much harder than mastering a DAW and copy-paste skills and, as it happens, seemingly unnecessary in today's film/video/TV worlds...

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 03:33
by muziksculp
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2003, U.S.A., Posts 448

So.. who are the great modern classical composers these days, and what are some of their great works that you can refer me to,  that have composed interesting, and delightiful music during the past five to ten years ?     

Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 09:06
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Originally Posted by: Errikos Go to Quoted Post
Alas, this is much harder than mastering a DAW and copy-paste skills and, as it happens, seemingly unnecessary in today's film/video/TV worlds...

However, this is exactly what directors and producers want. The composer is very rarely allowed to write the music they want to, even if it is what suits the picture best. Consequently most film and TV composers are all about keeping the client happy, not making waves, and consequently writing nothing that is worth listening to, when compared with history's rich tapestry of music.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 09:10
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Originally Posted by: muziksculp Go to Quoted Post

So.. who are the great modern classical composers these days, and what are some of their great works that you can refer me to,  that have composed interesting, and delightiful music during the past five to ten years ?     

Well that's easy, but before we get into that, perhaps you'd like to share some examples of who, in your opinion, are the great symphonic film composers of the last 5 to 10 years. However, may I gently point out, Classical composers, for want of a more accurate and less populist title, are not about the latest fad in music, as a rule, so one needs to look at a body of work over a number of years in order to understand whether or not someone is a great composer.

DG


Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 09:13
by icecubeman
Joined on Fri, Nov 09 2012, Nitra, Posts 201

You can start with this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_21st-century_classical_composers but remember that even J.S.Bach starts to be widely known almost 100 years after his death and for example work of Schubert was almost not known during his short life. If you want to know where the film music composers stands, try to read this great book http://www.amazon.com/History-Film-Music-Mervyn-Cooke/dp/0521010489. You will soon realise that for example H. Zimmer is one of the most nonoriginal film music composer of all time   

This is just my opinion...

Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 09:19
by kenneth.newby
Joined on Wed, Mar 19 2014, Posts 126
Yan Maresz, Zig-zag Etudes

Hans Abrahamsen, Let Me Tell You, Schnee

Works by Steven Stucky, Matthias Pintscher, Per Norgard, Steve Reich, Tristan Murail, Georg Friedrich Haas, Gerard Grisey, Kaija Saariaho, Tan Dun (who's done some decent film work as well) to name a few more.

Then there's Toru Takemitsu, who created exquisite concert music as well as providing some of the most innovative film music to come out of the genre... Listen to his music and sound design for Kwaidan, or Ran, or Woman in the Dunes, or, or or...

Kenneth.
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 11:53
by icecubeman
Joined on Fri, Nov 09 2012, Nitra, Posts 201

Yes Toru Takemitsu, one of the greatest composers of last decades of 20 century.

Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 15:03
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

An interesting debate and I personally find myself "between the chairs" in any discussed aspects: 

1) Yes I belong to those who flood this forum with music from our long musical tradition and do no filmusic at all. And I know what I am doing, and siimply just like it (I simply do not need no film just to work reasonable on good music. A great and interesting score is for me reason enough. But this is my personal attitude. Other will do great things on their own completly different way. )

 2) On the other hand I always have the strongest sympathies for those who are in danger to be deprecated in any way, especially when it comes to those who are creative (that's also the reason why i mostly do music of less known composers). And of course there are great musicians working for films, doing incredible good things, why should'nd they and their music be as good as a music ever could be.  Are we sure, that Mozart or Beethoven would have rejected interesting filmmusicjobs if hey have had the chance to do so. I personally think they would have had much fun to do filmmusic if they would have had the chance.

 3) Yes of course VSL offer some of the most reasonable and powerfull products in the world of sampling. But don't think, that buying anything easier affordable makes anything faster or easier to handle. No matter how bombastic it is ever named. For me I often prefer my VSL-Libraries since it is just that much easier to get what I need aswell because it is mostly already easily available in VSL but also because the Libraries and software simple work pretty (hardare-)efficient and rocksolid, what is at least as I remember from others not necessarily always the case with other comptitors. I personally do not think the Learning curve is that much steeper than with other plugs, but the Variety is in VSL definitly mostly much broader than nearly anywhere else.

However I am very curious for the next Filmmusic mozart and hope he will posst all his stuff right here......

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 15:10
by icecubeman
Joined on Fri, Nov 09 2012, Nitra, Posts 201

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Are we sure, that Mozart or Beethoven would have rejected interesting filmmusicjobs if hey have had the chance to do so. I personally think they would have had much fun to do filmmusic if they would have had the chance.

 

Stravinskij rejected with words: "You dont have such money to pay me" He knows that film music is 90% about money not art.

Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 15:52
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

I am not sure if I really would have paid Stravinsky how beautiful his Ballet-music ever would be (which are also not that far from Filmmusic in many aspects). At least Prokofiev, Shostakovich Korngold, or Waxmann Steve Reich and many other great musicians have done great things, no matter how god or bad they have been payed.

In short I don not want to deprecate neither those who are inspired by films to produce music nor those who aork without. If the resulting music is worth listening should decide nothing else than the ears who do so.

Thats why I as good lod european will go on flooding this forum with Works of our musical tradition, while I am in the same time pretty curious for all others who post music here how ever it might be motivated...

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 16:03
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5710

"Most film music is garbage, in terms of music qualtiy. In fact by definition it can't be first rate music, or there would be no need for the film. "  - DG

I swore I would never post any more arguing on this Forum but this must be addressed.  I realize that DG has a lot of knowledge and experience, but this statement is negative, dismissive, and rejects an entire art form in one thoughtless sentence. 

The same thing - precisely - could be stated about ballet and opera.  Since they are combinations of dance with music, or theater with music, then by this faulty logic their music cannot be as good as pure concert music.  And of course that is completely false.  The concept that only concert music can be great music is absurd. 

Ballet, opera and film music are hybrid art forms, and their music can be as great as any other in the hands of a composer who likes to work in such a medium. 

Also, to state that film music is inherently bad because it is conventionally bad due to lackluster efforts in  commercial productions is equally absurd.  Conventional practice is not the same as artistic possibilities. 

Not only can film music be as great as any other music, some of it - i.e. Herrmann, Goldsmith, Konrngold, and many others - is superior to much of the concert music of the time. 

I don't like these negative sweeping condemnations of an an entire art form that has vast potential. 

Posted on Mon, Feb 16 2015 16:21
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Bill, I agree with all the composers that you mention. However, I was talking about current film composers (all of the ones you mentioned are dead) and in any case "most" implies the majority, and film music includes made for TV films, so I dare you to watch the SyFy channel, for example, for a day and then come back and tell me that you still disagree with what I said.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
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