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FREE UPDATE: Great Rieger Organ OUT NOW!
Last post Fri, Sep 17 2021 by badibeat, 66 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Jun 14 2021 11:47
by Konrad
Joined on Thu, Aug 14 2014, Posts 23

We're not really bound to realism ;) You can expect an update enabling key velocity.

Konrad Glas
Software Developer - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Jun 14 2021 13:29
by wwzeitler
Joined on Sat, Jun 06 2009, Los Angeles, Posts 59

"I was listening to the Big Fugue in G Minor demo, and it made me sad that it sounds so static."

(I have not listened to the Fugue in G Minor demo, but speaking generally:)

It needn't. Another difference between piano and organ is decay: piano notes decay and organ notes sustain indefinitely. One of the consequences of this is that the release of a note on an organ is just as apparent to the listener as the attack. Organists can take advantage of this by controlling the duration of each note -- we're talking about millisecond variations here. So if you have four 1/16th notes, you can do, say legato between 1 and 2 and the rest are detached -- giving the illusion of accentuating the first note. Or even if they're all detached from each other, making note 1 a few milliseconds longer than 2,3,4 will also give the illusion of accentuating the first note. 

You can also make whole phrases 'airy-er' by increasing slightly the gaps/silences between notes. Or 'thicker' by decreasing the gaps. You can also make a phrase super-legato by slightly overlapping the notes (negative gap?) You can also apply this to whole passages. In the Great Fugue in Gm you could have smaller gaps at the strong beginning, make the gaps a little bigger in the more introspective passages in the middle to make them sound lighter, then make the gaps smaller again towards the end for a stronger sounding finish. You get the idea. Sure, it's not the same as velocity sensitivity, but there's also much more one can do to expressively phrase notes on the organ than one might think.

(An important factor is the size of the room and instrument -- the reverb of a large room will obscure these sort of subtleties. Although Bach played on large instruments all over what was more or less Germany at the time, the largest instrument on which he had a regular job was only TWO MANUALS -- in consequently less than gargantuan rooms. Now, huge organs are of course great fun, but smaller instruments do have a clarity and transparency that huge instruments may not. Tradeoffs yet again.)

And we haven't even gotten to manual or registration changes. I've heard some organists play a long piece like the Great Gm entirely on only one manual. WHY? Or don't even do a simple registration change like add a reed or mixture towards the end. WHY?

Some organists (and pianists and violinists...) play statically -- boring is not necessarily the fault of the instrument! 

 As an aside, one of Bach's "side jobs" was technically evaluating new organs (were they built well or not) -- he was quite expert in that technology. Think about it: a pipe organ in those days was easily the most complex machine humans were making at that time (certainly in the West). Arguably it remained the most complex machine humans were making until the latter 19th century.  In other words, Bach was fiercely interested in the most advanced music technology of his day. Towards the end of his life he also had the opportunity to try out the newly invented pianoforte -- liked it very much but had some concrete suggestions on how to improve it (which the builder took to heart). Or, check out the Lautenwerck (http://www.baroquemusic.org/barluthp.html)  -- Bach had one built to his specifications. In his own day Bach was a music technology freak!

Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano :: Organ
www.WIlliamZeitler.com
www.GrailHeart.com
Posted on Mon, Jun 14 2021 14:01
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 377

Thanks Konrad! A very welcome update. I've no doubt it will, for one thing, make the chores of obtaining and maintaining desired voice-balances much quicker and easier.

As for creative use of modulating note-by-note volume by means of velocity, I'd offer a word of caution.

During my early experiments with orchestral intonation I found out the hard way that the pianoforte is certainly not a suitable instrument for intoning in any way other than traditionally. Why? I'm convinced it's because we are all so deeply accustomed to the sound and tuning of the piano that even small departures from that tuning can be instantly noticeable - tending to stick out like sore thumbs and so causing unwelcome disruptions in the listening experience. Somewhat similarly, though for fewer people, we are not accustomed to hearing substantial note-by-note modulation of volume in pipe organ performances.

It's the old case of being mindful that the human organism is enormously adaptable - including our hearing - and that anyone can, in isolation as an individual, all too quickly become accustomed to almost anything within the vast scope of our adaptabilities. And yet in very large populations (which include our listeners), deeply embedded "normalities" tend to change only very slowly - except in the case of a dramatically successful innovation. Call it culture, call it what you will but it's something very real and worth treating with cautious respect.

That said, I'll certainly not stand in the way of attempted innovations in music. "Naturalisation" means the innovation is successfully internalised by many people, all the cultural gatekeeping has been satisfied and the world has duly changed for those people; it is inherently a democratic, distributed, cultural process, hence it is also - most especially in the case of music - beyond any individual's power to impose or prevent. Moreover, it's not without its own sanctions, positive and negative; so one might add, "careful with that axe, Eugene".

Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 00:47
by wwzeitler
Joined on Sat, Jun 06 2009, Los Angeles, Posts 59

I'm not getting anywhere with 'latch mode'. I'm struggling in Vienna Ensemble trying to figure out how automation applies. Is there a tutorial JUST on Vienna Ensemble automation -- something I have never used before? The available tutorials seem to gloss over it at best. I'm very comfortable using automation in Cubase, but I don't get how this relates to the automation feature in VE.

I'm not finding the Vienna Ensemble manual helpful either. In the chapter "Parameter Automation", for example, the first step is "Choose the corresponding parameter in your sequencer [OK, this must be one of the organ stops in the Rieger] and choose from the available automation modes (Read | Latch | Touch | Write)." Where? I'm not seeing how to select that option anywhere.

I would be grateful for pointers to where all this is explained.

Thanks!

William Zeitler

Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano :: Organ
www.WIlliamZeitler.com
www.GrailHeart.com
Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 01:21
by wwzeitler
Joined on Sat, Jun 06 2009, Los Angeles, Posts 59

Regarding latch mode:

It looks like you need to set up automation for each stop individually. Ugh! Hopefully I'm wrong about that!

The following doesn't work, but seems like it should:

1) Figure out the stop number of the stop you want to control. You can find that by clicking 'E' for E)dit on the stop itself.
2) Pull up the automation panel in VE (under 'View')
3) Select 'Midi Parameters'. Here you can map automation from your DAW (e.g. a CC) to the desired VE parameter. Search for 'Enable Stop' in the list of available VE automation parameters and then scroll down to the stop number you determined in step 1.

No joy. :-(

VE 7.0.1056
Cubase 11.0.20
Windows 10 (latest)

Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano :: Organ
www.WIlliamZeitler.com
www.GrailHeart.com
Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 09:04
by Angelus
Joined on Mon, Jul 23 2007, Wiltshire, UK, Posts 57

Originally Posted by: wwzeitler Go to Quoted Post

It looks like you need to set up automation for each stop individually. Ugh! Hopefully I'm wrong about that!

Recording all automation including individual stop enable/disable is working for me in Cakewalk by just clicking on one button, I suppose every host has a way of doing it with VST3 plugins somehow. But how do I do individual stop selection via MIDI? My PC monitor doesn't have a touch screen and I can't really use a mouse whilst I'm playing. Well, I think Cakewalk has some limited facility for this, and probably other hosts have ways too, but probably not enough for all the stops. I could also do it by making some modifications to my control surface plugin (isn't open source great!), but that option isn't open to everyone. The player should allow the use of RPN/NRPN for stop selection. Or the computer keyboard (the typing one, that is) itself. Just look at how Hauptwerk does it for some ideas.

BTW, you can easily find the stop number by double-clicking on the manual name (underneath the Play/Combine/Mix section) - the stop selection panel for that manual will then expand and you can see the numbers. However, the stop numbers as presented by the player to the host are sequential from 1 to 120, and they don't map one-to-one onto the stop numbers shown in the player. For example, say I enable "stop 80" from my DAW - that actually maps onto stop 116, Soloflute 4' in the player. So, I could write down the mapping, and even implement it in my control surface plugin so it shows the correct names if I really wanted to

Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 12:10
by badibeat
Joined on Thu, Jan 15 2009, Posts 19

Originally Posted by: wwzeitler Go to Quoted Post
... - Bach had one built to his specifications. In his own day Bach was a music technology freak!
Thank you for this beautiful post. The last sentence nicely summarises what I was hinting at.

Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 13:11
by wwzeitler
Joined on Sat, Jun 06 2009, Los Angeles, Posts 59

Originally Posted by: Angelus Go to Quoted Post

the stop numbers as presented by the player to the host are sequential from 1 to 120, and they don't map one-to-one onto the stop numbers shown in the player. For example, say I enable "stop 80" from my DAW - that actually maps onto stop 116, Soloflute 4' in the player. 

So how does one figure out this mapping?

BTW, I also have Hauptwerk, which is marvelous: for the benefit of other posters it occupies an entirely different use case space, being a standalone program for those who want to emulate a pipe organ on a dedicated console and do nothing else. Churches who don't have millions of dollars for a pipe organ, and organists who want a convincing instrument at home are their main audience. Organ consoles that generate nothing but MIDI for Hauptwerk are available -- monster MIDI controllers! A supreme virtue of Hauptwerk is that sample sets from all manner of amazing instruments can be loaded into the program. They've provided a VST for connecting a DAW to it. With Hauptwerk you also have to program your own automation to manipulate stops (and pistons, etc.)

Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano :: Organ
www.WIlliamZeitler.com
www.GrailHeart.com
Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 13:26
by Angelus
Joined on Mon, Jul 23 2007, Wiltshire, UK, Posts 57

Originally Posted by: wwzeitler Go to Quoted Post

So how does one figure out this mapping?

The long way! I was planning on writing it out anyway so if you like I'll post it here in text/csv format so you can do what you want with it.

Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 13:54
by wwzeitler
Joined on Sat, Jun 06 2009, Los Angeles, Posts 59

Originally Posted by: Angelus Go to Quoted Post

The long way! I was planning on writing it out anyway so if you like I'll post it here in text/csv format so you can do what you want with it.

I for one would be grateful!

Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano :: Organ
www.WIlliamZeitler.com
www.GrailHeart.com
Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 14:11
by Angelus
Joined on Mon, Jul 23 2007, Wiltshire, UK, Posts 57

Here you go, it turned out to be fairly logical in the end. I had to change the file extension to .txt, so rename it to .csv and then you can open it in a spreadsheet and sort the columns how you want.

[EDIT] Just for clarification, the numbers in the left column are the ones in the VST parameter name, which is "Enable Stop n". To get the actual raw VST parameter number, add 911.

File Attachment(s):
VOU0020StopU0020Map.txt (4kb) downloaded 7 time(s).

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Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 14:26
by wwzeitler
Joined on Sat, Jun 06 2009, Los Angeles, Posts 59

Originally Posted by: Angelus Go to Quoted Post

Here you go, it turned out to be fairly logical in the end.

Thank you kindly! I've got some real work to do first, I'll play with this soon.

Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano :: Organ
www.WIlliamZeitler.com
www.GrailHeart.com
Posted on Tue, Jun 15 2021 15:42
by Angelus
Joined on Mon, Jul 23 2007, Wiltshire, UK, Posts 57

You're welcome. Just check out my edit above first.

Posted on Wed, Jun 16 2021 11:59
by wwzeitler
Joined on Sat, Jun 06 2009, Los Angeles, Posts 59

Originally Posted by: Angelus Go to Quoted Post

Here you go, it turned out to be fairly logical in the end. I had to change the file extension to .txt, so rename it to .csv and then you can open it in a spreadsheet and sort the columns how you want.

Ha, got it working! Yippee!

Originally Posted by: Angelus Go to Quoted Post

[EDIT] Just for clarification, the numbers in the left column are the ones in the VST parameter name, which is "Enable Stop n". To get the actual raw VST parameter number, add 911.

I didn't need to add 911. I just chose CC xx and mapped that to 'Enable Stop 1' and lo and behold the Hauptwerk Principal 8' toggled on and off. The problem I was having was that the stop number you see when you display the stop info is not the same as the stop number in 'Enable Stop X'. Your chart takes care of that mapping.

Thanks again!

Composer :: Glass Armonica :: Piano :: Organ
www.WIlliamZeitler.com
www.GrailHeart.com
Posted on Wed, Jun 16 2021 14:02
by Angelus
Joined on Mon, Jul 23 2007, Wiltshire, UK, Posts 57

Glad to hear it helped.

Despite Cakewalk's "documentation", I've now got stop selection via MIDI working. It's going to be a bit laborious to set up for each stop individually, though, which is why I still think the player should have the ability to map each stop to something like an NRPN according to its displayed stop number by just checking a single box in the options.

[EDIT]To quote someone on the Cakewalk forums, "A lot of VST's use NRPN's for their automation parameters"

Posted on Thu, Jun 17 2021 06:47
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 277

Originally Posted by: badibeat Go to Quoted Post

I was listening to the Big Fugue in G Minor demo, and it made me sad that it sounds so static.

Well, like the other guy said, there are ways to manipulate the organ based on lengths of notes.  Take another listen, and aside from the different combinations, you will hear different approaches to the fugue subject depending on where they take place in the piece.  

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.6.3. Big Sur & Windows 10.
Posted on Fri, Jun 18 2021 22:02
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 453

Hi Stephen,

I wonder what version of the Fugue this is. Years ago I played this piece (it was one of the pieces that made me fall in love with the organ and especially Bach's music for the instrument). From about 3.40 there are substantial differences between the version that I played (and heard from many others) and the version you play.

Posted on Sat, Jun 19 2021 02:20
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 277

I was wondering when someone was going to catch my changes in the various demos. ;)

It's the same kind of things I did in the Beethoven piano sonata or Chopin demos... random modulations, or in this case swapping voices here and there.  Just little jokes for me.  But of course I make sure that the spirit of the library comes across.

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.6.3. Big Sur & Windows 10.
Posted on Sat, Jun 19 2021 03:07
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 453
Okay..... Well, sorry to say for you, but my unspoken feeling was that your version was an early version, that definitely needed some amelioration in the eyes of Bach.... but that makes sense with a genius like him 😉
Posted on Sat, Jun 19 2021 05:20
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 277

MMKA, oh don't worry.  I'm making no claim that these changes are "good" or better... just that they are little jokes.

Maybe just consider it my best Cameron Carpenter impersonation. ;)

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.6.3. Big Sur & Windows 10.
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