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For my own clarity on cc11 vs timbre-exp
Last post Fri, Apr 29 2016 by garrcrowley@yahoo.com, 3 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Apr 28 2016 17:41
by garrcrowley@yahoo.com
Joined on Tue, Nov 06 2007, Posts 66



Hi !

Would anyone care to give me there input pertaining to the following's accuracy about what we're accomplishing while using cc11, etc. for the creation of expression?

I'm beginning to build my templates for 8.5.

So, just to be clear for myself about controller usage for expression,
Cc7, cc11, automation volume, all create the same thing, an artificial crescendo or decrescendo, devoid of timbral qualities.

So for example, I'm recording an Oboe Solo. On this particular library patch, I or a developer have assigned cc11 to either my Mod Wheel or a fader. The fader rests at a starting velocity in my Akai of 25. The Oboe I am recording with into Cubase is built in Kontakt with overlapping (or not) Velocity layers mapped (assigned) to Zones in the Kontakt mapping editor. Conceptually the same mapping ideas as for utilizing velocity layers in VSL, East West Play , etc..
My Oboe phrase has ended on a sustained "B3" of 6 beats in duration. This note while sustaining sits in Kontakt on an "mp" velocity layer in the zone built on that "B3".

On beat 2, I begin riding the fader up to crescendo, riding the crescendo until the fader peaks at 117 velocity.

However, regardless of whether I am using cc11, cc7, a Breath Controller , volume automation etc., I am still only making the "mp" note a loud "mp", not an "ff" with its timbral qualities.

And while these controllers (cc11,etc.) have made the note considerably louder (or conversely, softer) they can't make it into a "fff" because with these tools we cannot access the recorded volume, (ie, timbral) layers in Kontakt, et al, so that vel 117 would create a true "fff", and give me the timbral response for, say, a "cuivre" (blare) from a Brass instrument at its loudest .

Cc11, as normally assigned, cannot do this and is not the same as what some developers (LASS,8DIO etc.) label as "Dynamic" patches


As far as I know the only tools we have to read and activate velocity layers that include the timbral responses I seek are:
A. Using the Kontakt AET filter,
B. Buying libraries that provide Velocity X FADES, which can be iffy in their effectiveness or
C. Buying libraries that offer Dynamics patches, ie LASS, 8DIO, VSL.
However , as there is no consistent standard between developers for the use of volume levels with the beginnings of Dynamic patches, you , the user, will have to adjust your workflow from library to library.
D. Buying libraries with patches with recorded crescendos, dims, Dn & Up Bws, etc.
E. Using DAW specific tools like Cubases Note Expressions. But are these timbral, or again just louder?

Is the above about accurate?

And are there any tools out there that I don't know of that provide accurate or at least better options for creating or employing the full ranges of the multiple velocities in the libraries I-we buy other the upon the initial attacks?

Any input is welcome!

Thank you!


Posted on Thu, Apr 28 2016 20:35
by J.Hall
Joined on Tue, Sep 28 2010, Posts 69

I generally use CC11 for expression within a given phrase and set the velocity (controlling velocity x-fade with CC2) to the most suitable dynamic and sometimes (but not everytime) I do a velocity x-fade to help the feeling of crescendo/diminuendo. When I have the time to really sculpt a phrase I use the dynamic patches. 

You seem to know the limitations of velocity and velocity x-fades. As far as I know there's no other solutions than the ones you mention. There is a free script for Kontakt somewhere to enable velocity x-fade between velocity layers, if that's what you need. I think the author is called Nils.

i7-6700, 32 GB DDR4 RAM, 120GB SSD, 500GB SSD, 500GB HDD
Cubase 8.5 / VI PRO / VE / MIRx / SE1+, SE2, SE4 / Dim. Brass I / Dimension Strings I standard / Soprano Choir + some full single instruments
Posted on Fri, Apr 29 2016 03:35
by garrcrowley@yahoo.com
Joined on Tue, Nov 06 2007, Posts 66

Thanks Mr. Hall.

The scripter you refer to is Nils Lingren I believe.

The script itself I'm not familiar with, but Kontakt has a filter, the "AET FILTER" that basically creates the VSL Player Slot X Fades, and the Vel X Fades.

It hasn't been well received by orchestral sequencers on other forums.

Thanks for the input!


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