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Using Vienna Ensemble on main DAW computer: why? Any point?
Last post Sat, Apr 18 2009 by JT3_Jon, 11 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Mar 28 2009 23:59
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 467

Hello everyone,

Please forgive my ignorance, but I cannot see any point to using VE3 on ones main DAW computer. Why would someone choose to use VE3 instead of just opening up multiple Vienna Instruments in their DAW? Is it a RAM thing? (I dont know for sure, but I believe in Logic at least that VI can access as much ram as your system will allow, correct?) Is it all for the "power panner?" (you can do the same thing via direction mixer in Logic and/or the panner plug in Vienna Suite).

Now dont get me wrong, VE3 ROCKS on slave machines, and is an AMAZING piece of software innovation! Major props for VSL to have the foresight and ability to create such an outstanding piece of software. But I just dont see why anyone would use VE on their main DAW system. Any benefits I'm not seeing?

Thanks in advance for your reply.  

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Sun, Mar 29 2009 00:17
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 There are various reasons, some of which will be applicable to you, some not.

  1. Logic users can pan the Instruments properly, without having to use plugs.
  2. It uses it's own memory space, so you can load twice as munch as you can when only using VI
  3. You can easily send one MIDI channel to more than one Instrument
  4. When OSX is finally 64bit you will be able to use as much memory as your computer has, even whilst using a 32bit sequencer.

For me, being a Windows uses, the last is the most important, because my template is 17GB and I only need one PC in total.


DG


Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Mar 29 2009 00:41
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 467

Thank you for your reply DG. I'm going to break down each of your points, and please let me know if I'm wrong. Big Smile 

1. This one is true, but I dont necessarily see the benefit when you can just as easily use logics direction panner or Vienna Suite to pan. I guess if you dont have a direction panner then VE is a benefit, but since I do.... Wink 

2. I don't know if this one is true. I thought VI could also access memory outside the DAW, similar to how EXS can access memory outside of logic, allowing you to use all available ram on your machine. 

3. This is actually really easy to do in logic (simply record enable as many tracks as necessary & record). 

4. This is 100% untrue. OSX is part 64bit, and with proper coding does allow you to access as much memory as your computer has available. See EXS use of memory in Logic 8. 

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Sun, Mar 29 2009 00:55
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
 
  1. Direction Mixer doesn't work properly. You have to use two of them to pan properly. VS costs money...!
  2. VI can currently only use around 3GB RAM. As can VE. therefore using both gives you twice as much RAM for your Instruments.
  3. I don't understand. Surely with your solution you would need one MIDI track for each Instrument? I'm talking about one MIDI track for multiple Instruments.
  4. AFAIK 32bit sequencers can only load 32bit plugs. EXS is a special case. It only works in Logic. Not much use to Cubase or DP users. Unless Logic goes 64bit, it will only load 32bit plugs (unless they create some kind of bit bridge for 3rd party plugs). If Logic does go 64bit, then all plugs will need to be coded in 64bit, unless there is some sort of bridge, which may or may not work efficiently. Therefore VE will be very useful to a lot of users. As soon as we talk about Windows users then it is already very useful, and much more than VI, as it works differently from on OSX.

Your original question was about using VE on  a DAW. OSX is only one possible OS (and Logic is only one sequencer), and it may well be that you see no advantage. However for the rest of the world it can be a real advantage.


DG


Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Mar 29 2009 18:22
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 467

Thank you for re-explaining your points DG, and sorry for not getting them the first time. You are correct on all counts. If its true that VI can currently only use around 3GB of RAM in total (not per instance) then VE's benefit on the main DAW becomes very obvious.

Thanks again! 

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Sun, Mar 29 2009 19:51
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

 No problem.


I think that if it wasn't for the whole Carbon/Cocoa fiasco,you'd be reaping the benefits right now, instead of having to wait for Snow Leopard. That said, it could still be a benefit to you if Logic doesn't update to 64bit quickly or all your current 32bit plugs don't work in Logic 64bit when it does.


DG


Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Mar 30 2009 16:59
by donimon
Joined on Sun, May 18 2003, Hollywood, CA, Posts 12

I run VE outside of Logic on the same machine.   I think the major benefit is it stays loaded 24-hrs a day and you don't have to wait for it to load every time you open a different session.   This can add up if you have to fly around between cues all day.   Why wait for it to load multiple times when you're always loading the same thing?  So for me, it's the best of both worlds - like having a slave computer always on, but the convenience and simplicity of having it on the same machine.

Posted on Mon, Mar 30 2009 20:26
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I agree that having to load up multiple times can be a bore, and am looking forward to the next update where there (allegedly) is an option to keep samples loaded.


However, using my workaround, it only takes around 4 minutes to load a new project (of 17GB), so it is bearable. Of course, the advantage is that I have all my settings saved with the project, and can have as many stereo tracks as I want routed back into the DAW, without a need for expensive hardware, such as MADI cards (and I would need 2, and still be moaning about not enough inputs....!).


DG


Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Fri, Apr 17 2009 19:02
by bmiller360
Joined on Fri, Apr 10 2009, Calabasas, CA, Posts 170
in response to the announcement of VE Pro referring to disconnecting from your DAW if you want to keep the same instruments loaded in VE Pro, how does this actually work? Is it possible that a scenario like having VE Pro opened first, when I open a saved Logic project that somehow, miraculously VE Pro is told by the sequencer what instruments to load for that project, and that info is somehow saved in the host??? Otherwise, if you want to retain the same setup in VE Pro, why must you disconnect from your DAW when changing projects? I originally expected to use VE Pro on my same computer so I could save setups for individual cues with different instruments and especially to be able to have a large template that would "never" have to be reloaded, thus making changing projects in Logic take just seconds, instead of the many minutes it can sometimes take. Basically, i'm picturing Logic to only have audio and midi tracks, for the most part, except for EXS and that sort of thing. This would essentially act like Digital Performers "chunks", without the Digital Performer! is this right??
Hope I explained this correctly.
bruce
bruce
Posted on Sat, Apr 18 2009 00:25
by bmiller360
Joined on Fri, Apr 10 2009, Calabasas, CA, Posts 170
one more quick, but important question regarding Ensemble..... if I want Ensemble Pro to be on a slave computer, as well as main computer, do I need a syncrosoft USB key on each computer? I'm told that Ensemble Pro will come with 3 or 4 licenses. Will I need a key on each machine?
thanks,
bruce
bruce
Posted on Sat, Apr 18 2009 04:39
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 467

Yup, you need a key for every computer you want to run Vienna Ensemble on. Note that you do NOT need a key for your DAW UNLESS you plan on running Vienna Ensemble outside your DAW. I currently do not run Vienna Ensemble on my DAW, so it doesn't require a key, only my slave. 

Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
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