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Logic Spacedesigner Reverb and VE Pro
Last post Sat, Mar 26 2011 by MS, 6 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Mar 24 2011 16:04
by Ege
Joined on Sat, Jan 22 2005, Washington, DC, Posts 104

Having purchased VE Pro, it appears that some, but not all, of the inserts available in the 64 bit version of Logic Pro 9.1.3, importantly Spacedesigner convolution reverb, do not appear to be available as Inserts for VE Pro.  As a result, although it is possible to use the Power Pan function of VE Pro, one cannot at the same time place an instrument within a reverberation context, at least without separately purchasing the Vienna Suite.  Is my understanding oorrect?

IMac, 2.9 GHz Intel 4 Core i5, 32 GB, OSX 10.10.1
Posted on Thu, Mar 24 2011 17:56
by MS
Joined on Wed, Feb 19 2003, Liechtenstein, Posts 1716

Space Designer is only built-in into Logic, and not available as an AU plugin. Thus you cannot use this plugin in any other host. But you are of course free to create a bus in VEPro, send from your instrument tracks to this bus, route the bus output to Logic - and then send from this bus to whatever plugin you want inside of Logic.

--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH
Posted on Thu, Mar 24 2011 21:24
by Ege
Joined on Sat, Jan 22 2005, Washington, DC, Posts 104

Martin --

Thanks for the quick reply and clarification.  I think the situation is as follows:  I can achieve forward and back placement of an instrument in VE Pro by using the slider on the channel for the instrument in question (just as I can follow the same procedure within Logic itself, using the volume fader on the channel strip and establishing a bus to the reverb effect, in effect splitting the signal between wet and dry, recombining the two in the output section of the mixer).  I can use the Power Pan function of VE Pro to establish left and right placement of the instrument and the spread or width of the stereo signal.  This spread, however, is not itself a reverb; in effect, it is a "fat" (wide) mono or stereo signal.  I then deliver this combined forward and back signal (through the fader on the VE Pro channel), and the "fat" mono or stereo signal to Logic for further processing.

The audio signal from VE Pro enters Logic through the I/O section toward the bottom of the Logic instrument channel, to the left of the Arrange window.  The only way an audio signal from VE Pro can enter Logic is through the "Master Bus", which appears in the I/O section of Logic or through separate "Aux" channels established within Logic to receive separate audio signals from a multi-timbral instrument. 

I could not figure a way to send the audio signal OUT of VE Pro to Logic via some type of bus arrangement, and then BACK into VE Pro for processing there.   As a result, your comment about a "bus" left me stumped.

Right?

Steve

IMac, 2.9 GHz Intel 4 Core i5, 32 GB, OSX 10.10.1
Posted on Fri, Mar 25 2011 09:56
by MS
Joined on Wed, Feb 19 2003, Liechtenstein, Posts 1716

What I meant was to setup the reverb bus in VEPro, then route this bus to a separate output - and on the Logic Aux bus you then route it further to a space designer track.

--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH
Posted on Fri, Mar 25 2011 20:23
by Ege
Joined on Sat, Jan 22 2005, Washington, DC, Posts 104

Martin -

A picture, as they say . . .

Just to make sure I understand what I am looking at:  Sound from the VI Pro instruments are divided into TWO streams.  One goes directly to the Master buss and its volume is controlled by the main fader in the center of the chanel strip (all set at 0.0 in your example).  A SECOND stream is sent to a NEW bus, Reverb, the amount of the audio signal being sent determined by the horizontal slider (just under "SENDS") and by the fader on the Bus labled "Rev".  The Master Bus audio is sent to the Vienna Ensemble Software Instrument Input slot.  The Reverb signal is sent to NET 3/4.

Over in Logic I create an multi-timbral instance of VE Pro when I set up the track in Logic 9, specifying that the VE Pro instrument I want to instantiate is "Multiple-Output".  Once this track is set up, I add an Aux channel using the small "+" symbol just below the Logic Channel Fader.  The VE Pro Software channel itself has no sends or effect itself (unless you want to add sends in addition to Reverb or effects not being discussed here).  Output on the channel is just "Stereo Out".  The newly created Aux channel is set up thus:  Input is set at Vienna Ensemble 3 - 4 (since you used Net 3/Net 4 in your pictured example).  Output on the Aux is set to the Bus where I have separately set up the Space Designer (Bus 1 in Logic in my case).  The Aux channel reads "I/O / Vienna Ens 3 - 4 / Bus 1", the slashes here are meant to represent spaces between the items in the Aux channel.

The divided signal in Vienna Ensemble, therefore, travels to the Logic Input of the Vienna Ensemble channel strip (where the volume fader acts as a kind of Master Volume control for all Instruments set up in VE Pro).  The I/O there is simply:  "I/O / Vienna Ensemble Pro / Stereo Out". This signal places the instruments forward and backward in the sound field.  The second audio stream travels through Net 3/Net 4 to the Aux channel, whence it is directed to the Space Designer bus for reverb treatment, and thereafter to Stereo Output (or to some other channel for further processing, such as a compressor).

The result is a kind of "faux" reverb, in that it mixes a direct signal (from the instrument channel strip) and a reverb signal through the Aux channel.  The direct channel just gives a kind of forward (or backward) presence.  Possibly an important point, however:  the HORIZONTAL slider in VE Pro, determining how much to send to the REVERB bus, might PARTIALLY act as a kind of forward/backward placement of the instrument, because it determines how much of an instrument's audio signal to send into the reverb component.  A sophisticated reverb set up, such as MIR, would seem to be preferable to this jury-rigged approach, but one must live within one's budget.

Thanks for the illustration.  It was  a great help.

Steve

IMac, 2.9 GHz Intel 4 Core i5, 32 GB, OSX 10.10.1
Posted on Sat, Mar 26 2011 15:31
by MS
Joined on Wed, Feb 19 2003, Liechtenstein, Posts 1716
Steve_DC wrote:

The result is a kind of "faux" reverb, in that it mixes a direct signal (from the instrument channel strip) and a reverb signal through the Aux channel.  The direct channel just gives a kind of forward (or backward) presence.  Possibly an important point, however:  the HORIZONTAL slider in VE Pro, determining how much to send to the REVERB bus, might PARTIALLY act as a kind of forward/backward placement of the instrument, because it determines how much of an instrument's audio signal to send into the reverb component.  A sophisticated reverb set up, such as MIR, would seem to be preferable to this jury-rigged approach, but one must live within one's budget.

This is not really a "faux reverb" in any way, it is the same way engineers have been mixing reverb for 50 years, as an aux send to a bus with reverberation inserted. An approach that some people use today is to set their channel sends to "Pre Fader", then changing the distance/presence of the instrument by the main volume fader.

MIR definitely helps with this process, since one doesn't have to think about mixing in terms of levels, aux buses and sends - rather just see the venue and place the instrument where it belongs.

--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH
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