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MIR, MIR PRO question? Dimension Strings?
Last post Sun, Jun 26 2011 by SJSF, 19 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Jun 22 2011 17:57
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

First, I have been reading about using an early reflection or a couple (how that works, don't know?) per instrument or section, then having a master reverb for the tail... Does MIR do something similar, tails for each instrument, etc? People often say that Altiverb or Numerical Sound impulses don't compare because it's a different product and different technology... but to me they compare in that what will produce the most accurate room enviornment for an orchestra, etc...? - Can I place brass offstage or in the back of the hall, something like Marhler's 8th or is the software designed for the stage only? I just want to understand the nature of how MIR works in a way that I can feel confident that it's the right choice for me and that I know what I'm talking about and can back up my decision.

Other than the kind of program MIR Pro is, will there be anything different as far as sound reproduction goes? Would it be possible to record our own impulses for MIR? I ask because there I want certain unfound IR's. I live near the 'Mormon Tabernacle' in Utah which has amazing acoustics and I'm sure there is some scoring stage somewhere that I'd want as I'm never happy with most of them.

Dimension Strings... I know it's a long shot... but the other post I saw started a very unproductive EW vs VSL discussion. Is it in the works? On the roadmap? This year, next year, 5 years? I want even the generalist of ideas. I want to 1) be able to tell my EW friends that I not only have a superieror product, but a far superior one on the way (cause I am a die-hard VSL fanboy) but 2) I want divisi, violin 2 divisi, and much more. (In all honesty I'd love a 100% 'divisible' library, but I know that recording-wise and computer wise what that would mean)

Brass libraries to me need more than a simple mute, there are different kinds of mutes... I have been watching videos on strings and learning about different techniques and all the sudden I feel that VSL isn't enough... and VSL is the best option there is! lol - The point, I know there are limits... I only want to see VSL utterly destroy EW with far more articulations, far better sound, far better capabilities with divisi or something... I just want to quit hearing my EW friends rave about divisi, and other things I don't have! lol

Is there ANY information? The subtles of teaser info? I'll be happy to take a private message with information isntead! lol Anything? I may literally die from the suspense!

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Wed, Jun 22 2011 18:22
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
  1. With MIR each instrument has it's own position. There are no separate master controls for early reflexions or tail. The best thing to do would be to download the MIR demo and test it for yourself.
  2. As far as future products are concerned, when it comes to their sample products EW and VSL have very different approaches in regard to the information they give out.. EW announces products anything up to a year in advance; VSL announces products when they are ready.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
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Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2011 05:58
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

1) I have an AMD machine and while it isn't supported, I just haven't bothered to try. If ultimately I feel I must have MIR and I end up needing an Intel setup for it I certainly would consider switching... but in all honesty I have learned of a few other things that might convince me to get a Mac Pro anyway...

2) I completely understand not wanting to announce something until it's ready. I'm the 'beta guy' who wants to test every new product from every company I use something from. I'm addicted to the latest and greatest.

Thanks for the info...

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2011 12:06
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7289

Hi & thanks for your interest in Vienna MIR!

iscorefilm wrote:

First, I have been reading about using an early reflection or a couple (how that works, don't know?) per instrument or section, then having a master reverb for the tail... Does MIR do something similar, tails for each instrument, etc?

In the background, MIR takes into account a very complex set of variables individually for each and every instrument, for each and every position on a virtual stage (or other so-called "HotSpots" in a chosen Venue).

Let’s see what happens when you place a Vienna Instrument, e.g., the solo horn, on Vienna MIR’s virtual stage of a
given concert hall. First of all, the stage position triggers the selection of one or two sets of 8 impulses (6 for horizontal directions, 2 for upward
and downward directions). Equally important, the directivity characteristics of each instrument are applied before the convolution of impulses, so that the result depends on the frequency distribution and the volume an instrument is emitting in various directions. A horn, directed to the rear*),
obviously has a different spatial frequency profile than, e.g., the frontally blaring trumpet. The MIR engine calculates all of this in real-time, and what you get is – a solo horn that sounds exactly as if it were playing on that very spot on the stage.

IOW:  Individual, unique room-information will be calculated for any source in any position. This encompasses both the ER and the reverb tail.

The good thing is that all that technical lunacy ;-) doesn't bother the user.

*) Edit: The fact that the horn's bell is usually directed to the back of the stage is taken into account by MIR automatically! You don't have to take care for that manually. This is done on behalf of the Instrument Profiles available for more or less all Vienna Instruments. - 3rd party instruments will have to make do with the so-called "General Purpose Profiles".

Quote:

People often say that Altiverb or Numerical Sound impulses don't compare because it's a different product and different technology... but to me they compare in that what will produce the most accurate room enviornment for an orchestra, etc...?

AltiVerb is a great convolution reverb (and there are quite a few other good ones, too, like the Waves IR-series, Voxengo's Pristine Space, and of course Vienna Suite's Convolution Reverb). Numerical Sound is delivering hi-quality impulse responses. All of this has little in common with the MIR concept, as we gather several thousands (!) of impulse responses from a real hall, to allow for free positioning of sources in its virtual recreation. By doing so, we ideally achieve the same "melt of voices" that would happen under the guidance of a good conductor in a real hall, working with a real orchestra. Technically spoken, we "mix" inside of MIR.

This  wouldn't be possible using any of the products you mentioned.

Quote:

Can I place brass offstage or in the back of the hall, something like Marhler's 8th or is the software designed for the stage only? I just want to understand the nature of how MIR works in a way that I can feel confident that it's the right choice for me and that I know what I'm talking about and can back up my decision.

Yes, you can do this. It wouldn't make sense in every venue, but we have the aforementioned off-stage "HotSpots" available for many halls of our MIR RoomPacks. An example: Looking at the VenueMap of the Steinhofkirche (a Taj-Mahal-like Art Nouveaux-cathedral in the sylvan hills of Western Vienna), you can see all those HotSpots-areas marked in yellow - also the balcony in the back:

-> http://viennamir.com/images/scr...acks3_Steinhofkirche.jpg

Quote:

Other than the kind of program MIR Pro is, will there be anything different as far as sound reproduction goes? Would it be possible to record our own impulses for MIR? I ask because there I want certain unfound IR's. I live near the 'Mormon Tabernacle' in Utah which has amazing acoustics and I'm sure there is some scoring stage somewhere that I'd want as I'm never happy with most of them. 

As I wrote above, MIR's impulse response sets (a.k.a. RoomPacks) are compiled from thousands of individual IR's. They are gathered from impulses sent into 8 directions from each position, recorded in 4-channel Ambisonics. All of this is based on a meticulously measured grid of stage positions (we use laser-aided triangulation for that part). - In big venues, it usually takes 24 to 36 hours to do the actual recordings.

All IR's are edited and optimzed by hand (!) after they have undergone a substantial amount of semi-automated pre-processing (calculating IRs form the original sweeps, Ambisonics Format A to Format B conversion, pre-filtering, and so on).

Finally, the mapped Venue is optimized as a whole within MIR.

Bottom line: I don't think that _anybody_ is really in the mood to do 3rd-party RoomPacks for MIR. :-)

... if you want to know more details, feel invited to read the MIR Manual, Section B: "Think MIR – Philosophy and underlying concepts". The manual is available as free download from your VSL User Area. Or even better - try the demo version! While we don't (can't) officially support AMD processors, chances are that it works without a hitch.

****************

 

Quote:

Dimension Strings... [...]

Is there ANY information? The subtles of teaser info? I'll be happy to take a private message with information isntead! lol Anything? I may literally die from the suspense!

You expected it already ... there's no official anouncement to be made, and I can neither confirm nor deny a product like that. But rest assured that we do record new samples from new instruments and/or ensembles each and every day (literally). 8-)

Kind regards,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2011 15:13
by GoranTch
Joined on Tue, Mar 14 2006, Berlin, Posts 524
Dietz wrote:

But rest assured that we do record new samples from new instruments and/or ensembles each and every day (literally). 8-)

Kind regards,

...something is brewing here, I'm telling you people...

Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2011 15:21
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7289

Hehehe ... yes, as always! ;-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2011 18:16
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

Dietz, thank you for the perfect response. That was about as informative as I could have ever wanted. I feel a bit stupid for not having thought to look at the MIR Manual so I will.

The justification for comparing MIR was this- Technology seems to be a toaster vs Optimus Prime, but how do they both sound in the end? Sound realism was my only concern. From the information you provided I can only imagine that the sound realism from MIR is simply outstanding. The only thing preventing me from testing it for myself was the mentality that it wouldn't even work with AMD at all. If there's the slightest chance that I can even use it to test... I'm certainly going to now, and I'll report my decision of quality on here as well for other readers.

I have a few more questions, for anyone... about MIR PRO (then no more questions, I promise!)

If what I asked is possible 1) would it be wise, or would it run smoother on the mac alone? 2) Would the system requirements of the mac still be 12-24GB of ram for MIR... or as the samples would be on a different machine would I need less. - I doubt it's even possible, but if it is, and there is no disadvantage to it... I certainly would... but then I'd need to know how much Mac do I need to get it done.

Again, Thank you for all the information. Hopefully an EW destroyer is brewing... Any new samples from VSL gets me excited. lol - I'll be sure to post my findings on MIR soon.

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Thu, Jun 23 2011 20:12
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7289

Hi Sean,

I certainly appreciate your enthusiasm, but we are definitely _not_ at war with anyone, so we do not intend to "destroy" anything. Party!!!

;-)

Best,

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Jun 24 2011 00:30
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

lol, I know... My friends and I just bicker on who between EW and VSL sound better. I say destroy in the friendliest (playing around) possible way that can be taken. :)

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Tags: EW VSL
Posted on Fri, Jun 24 2011 09:44
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

I tried the demo for a single trumpet without any luck. Everything worked but VI Pro, it wouldn't let play any samples, but the interface otherwise was fully functioning... they keys just wouldn't depress.

I found a youtube video of Namm, and turns out I got to watch you (Dietz) actually demo it, lol - But I fell in love entirely. MIR Pro is definately going in the budget now! :)

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Tags: MIR MIR Pro
Posted on Fri, Jun 24 2011 12:46
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7289

Just to make sure that I understood you correctly: You tried the MIR Demo, but you couldn't here anything?

I hardly dare to aks: There's a 10-steps Quick Start Guide available on one of the manual's first pages. Did you follow these instructions? (... including the part that you have to download and install at least one RoomPack - which must be the Demo RoomPack in your case?)

... the YouTube video is over two years old - we are actually better than that nowadays. ;-)

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Jun 24 2011 17:44
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

I AM ASHAMED!! I am usually very thorough lol - I did read and line by line
go over the 10 steps, and the "Good to know" bit also - so I'm not
THAT bad :) - Although, I could detail why for you, simply put: I looked at one
thing in MIR during the 'load the environment' bit, and thought that that I was
following the guide properly, obviously not as I did not download the trial pack, etc. We all need something to make us feel stupid sometimes anyway :)

I will try it again. The NAMM demo impressed me mainly with the trumpet
being moved around- how clearly I could hear the difference with turning the
instrument, moving it, etc. That alone is more impressive than the positioning
methods I have used. That alone was nice, but so much simpler than the amount
of work I put into it... so the simplicity along with it sounding better than
how I have done it, despite Youtube quality, is what convinced me. - I will certainly be trying to load MIR again.

Thanks again,

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Fri, Jun 24 2011 21:04
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7289

No problem, Sean. Glad to hear that the issue seems to be solvable so easily. :-)

There are more instructional videos available, BTW. Just go to www.viennamir.com and select them in the upper right corner of the front-page. Especially the Trial Guide might be helpful.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Jun 24 2011 23:48
by Vagn Luv
Joined on Sun, Apr 02 2006, Copenhagen, DK, Posts 271

Once you go MIR, you'll never go back. Trust me, it's that good. Big Smile

Pro Tools 9.0.6 HD2, 3x192

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PC, Asus P6T Delux v2 MoBo, i7 920 D0 @ 3.8 stable, 24GB RAM, GeForce 285 using 285.38 driver, Intel X25-M G2 120GB SSD sytem drive, Intel SSD and Raptor HDDs for sample streaming.
Posted on Sat, Jun 25 2011 18:59
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

I have now demoed MIR. At first, I thought the tool seemed like a foreign concept, but saying it was easy to use is a massive understatement. The sound is purely phenomenal! I LOVE the presets for warm, silk, etc. Playing with the sound is easy and the results are simply amazing. Turning an instrument around,  in any direction, I was amazed. I tested many other things, but I just want to keep this short. I am impressed and will certainly be buying MIR PRO.

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Tags: MIR MIR Pro
Posted on Sat, Jun 25 2011 21:35
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7289

DrinksWink

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Jun 26 2011 13:01
by GoranTch
Joined on Tue, Mar 14 2006, Berlin, Posts 524
Vagn Luv wrote:

Once you go MIR, you'll never go back. Trust me, it's that good. Big Smile

Posted on Sun, Jun 26 2011 18:58
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5398
iscorefilm wrote:

I have now demoed MIR. At first, I thought the tool seemed like a foreign concept, but saying it was easy to use is a massive understatement. The sound is purely phenomenal! I LOVE the presets for warm, silk, etc. Playing with the sound is easy and the results are simply amazing. Turning an instrument around,  in any direction, I was amazed. I tested many other things, but I just want to keep this short. I am impressed and will certainly be buying MIR PRO.

-Sean

I totally agree with that and would add that the musician-friendly environment is maybe the greatest innovation, especially considering all the fiddling and tweaking and screwing around that is usually needed with other digital audio post work.  I really like the way MIR is  based on musicians in a concert hall, instead of software engineers in an office.

Posted on Sun, Jun 26 2011 20:10
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497
William wrote:
MIR is  based on musicians

Yes, yes, and yes! - Oh, and if you're the William I think you are... I recently found your sight (you linked to it from these forumns) and there was some pretty great stuff on there. I'll be honest, the Mars demo wasn't my favorite... but I thought the rest were simply great!

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Tags: MIR
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