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VI Pro 2.0 (or 3.0) feature request.
Last post Wed, Jul 13 2011 by DG, 62 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2011 10:02
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

iscorefilm wrote:
 

Could a 'crossfade humanize' feature be possible? Something to automate the imperfections that a real player has... the reason I mention this is because VSL's samples are recorded as plain and even as possible. I certainly get why, there is a need for it in many ways... but it's also in every way inhuman. I still want the ability to fine tune, but the current humanize feature for pitch imperfections allows for both fine tuning and a degree of automatic 'humanization'. Having a similar feature for crossfading, making things more human rather than very flat dynamically in my opinion would be an essential feature.

 

I think that for large ensemble patches this is not really necessary, as those imperfections are ironed out when you have many players playing together in the same patch. However, it is useful to have some human element for solo instruments, and I would recommend getting a breath controller so that you can play the expression live. I know some people use a control surface, or even an expression pedal, but particularly for Woodwind and Brass instruments, I wouldn't be without my BC.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2011 16:18
by mike connelly
Joined on Wed, Apr 28 2004, Posts 260

I definitely agree with the request for matrixes where the levels of the various articulations are matched.  I see the reasoning behind doing it the other way but that's much less useful for me - if I'm playing a phrase that mixes different lengths of notes, I want to be able to just play the phrase in and have the dynamics reflect how I'm playing it in, not jump all over the place every time I switch articulations.  Seems like the best solution would be to improve the patches as opposed to adding more interface functionality for each user to try and fix it themself.

If there are users who like it the other way, then what about having some sort of switch in the interface?  Or providing two sets of matrixes?

The inconsistent transitions between dynamic layers are an important issue as well, thankfully I have only noticed problems a few times with the VSL libraries.

Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2011 16:47
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497
DG wrote:
I would recommend getting a breath controller so that you can play the expression live.

I have one last question for you then. My sole goal is to save time... I often get distracted from writing, specifically 'moving forward' with a piece cause I spend so long working on the getting the beginning sounding right. I'm OCD and if it doesn't sound right I just don't want to move on.

would using a breath controller be faster (more accurate) than using a fader or mod wheel? Because I'm used to drawing in this expression, I do very fine-tuned 'crossfade drawings', so to speak, so I want to know basically if the BC will be better at that than faders, knobs, etc. While those seem faster, they don't allow me to fine-tune quite as accurately.. thus my question.

Thanks,

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2011 16:51
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497
mike connelly wrote:
 Seems like the best solution would be to improve the patches as opposed to adding more interface functionality for each user to try and fix it themself.

I disagree. Herb outlined the perfect reason to have different volume levels, because if you want an instrument to be as 'real' as possible, with all the dynamic range it can.. certain samples will have more range than others... making this problem inevitible. Changing the samples wouldn't be an improvement, it would take away true functionality. I think this has a very simple sollution... a button (possibly linked to a midi cc) that turns on volume leveling between patches or turns it off... just like the vel x-fade on/off feature.

This pretty much would solve this problem for everyone, without having to make it tidious to users to make mass template changes, tedious mixer settings, etc...

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2011 17:10
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
iscorefilm wrote:
DG wrote:
I would recommend getting a breath controller so that you can play the expression live.

I have one last question for you then. My sole goal is to save time... I often get distracted from writing, specifically 'moving forward' with a piece cause I spend so long working on the getting the beginning sounding right. I'm OCD and if it doesn't sound right I just don't want to move on.

would using a breath controller be faster (more accurate) than using a fader or mod wheel? Because I'm used to drawing in this expression, I do very fine-tuned 'crossfade drawings', so to speak, so I want to know basically if the BC will be better at that than faders, knobs, etc. While those seem faster, they don't allow me to fine-tune quite as accurately.. thus my question.

Thanks,

-Sean

 

 I have two suggestions for you:

  1. Actually write the music. Don't go straight to programming. It may sound a long way round, but I find it is quicker to do a rough pencil sketch, type a score, then program. That way the creative bit is done fast and the rest is the performance. They are two different things. If I'm writing using a lot of synths, then might do a very rough string demo before doing it properly, but for orchestral stuff it is much slower for me to program with no printed score.
  2. Depending on how you set the BC up it could well be quicker and more musical. I play all my Ww/Br legato lines in using the BC and then, if necessary, edit the BC CC data. I've never tried using BC or even xFade on short dynamics, as it doesn't seem natural to me.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2011 17:14
by mike connelly
Joined on Wed, Apr 28 2004, Posts 260
iscorefilm wrote:

I disagree. Herb outlined the perfect reason to have different volume levels, because if you want an instrument to be as 'real' as possible, with all the dynamic range it can.. certain samples will have more range than others... making this problem inevitible. Changing the samples wouldn't be an improvement, it would take away true functionality. I think this has a very simple sollution... a button (possibly linked to a midi cc) that turns on volume leveling between patches or turns it off... just like the vel x-fade on/off feature.

That's exactly what I suggested, so I guess you agree with me after all.  There's an argument to be made for both ways of doing it - since different users will want it either of the two ways, the best solution is to provide the option to have the patches behave either way.

Posted on Fri, Jul 08 2011 17:36
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

lol, well maybe I do... it just seemed like you wanted to change the patches themselves, not with VI Pro but the files... which to me wouldn't have solved it for both sides. But I think the button idea is great, I don't know if VSL would consider it... but I think it wouldn't be hard to implement and would solve this issue.

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Sun, Jul 10 2011 03:42
by mohurwitzmusic
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2010, Posts 297
Has anyone tried to set the dynamic range to 0, then link Expression and Vel XF to the same CC? I tried this briefly tonight and it seemed to smooth things out a bit-- though my ears could be deceiving me.

MOH
www.midikinetics.com
Lemur touch controllers for composers and music producers.
Posted on Sun, Jul 10 2011 08:58
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 258

I did try playing with setting expression and Vel X-fade to the same CC, and don’t remember thinking that it worked, but will try again adding also the dynamic range into the equation.

I doubt that VSL would go back and change levels on patches, but continue to think that some behind the scene correction might be possible. Like the "button" mentioned above, maybe an "automatic" (that’s the tricky part) gain adapter with a fader to either let different levels pass (like when you want a sfz), and when you want smooth levels.

I don’t understand anything about phasing and related subjects, but also think that the future for these VSL libraries, would be a VIP (3.0?) that would go beyond simple patch playing, but rather morphing (whatever that means) between various base patches to achieve the sound (definable though automation). I’m thinking along the lines of some advances of the libraries that I mentioned earlier.

WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 18:20
by hose
Joined on Fri, Nov 09 2007, Posts 153

I believe I suggested a morph feature toggle button for the velo X fade for VI Pro 1.0. Something similiar to Kontakt. I quite certain that something like that would improve drastically the blend between the layers.

Also I'm still hoping for a fix for some legato instruments. I mean, imho I feel that arranging for appasionata strings takes far less time to get the legatos sounding smooth than the orchestral strings, for instance. In fact I use them much more often. I don't know, perhaps these fixes have to be done to the libraries themselves rather than the player.

Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 21:06
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

I am actually now using Orchestral, Chamber, and Solo to achieve the sound I want... even smoother legatos... better raw sound that is dynamic and only enough 'raw' comes through when I want it, etc. Cross fading now takes me 3 times the amount of time as before... because now that I have discovered this wonderful way that I should have been doing from the start... everything takes loads longer. :(

But good results are worth it!

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 21:41
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 258

Have you tried just doubling the midi track (from the orchestra strings ) for a seperate chamber & also solo track? That can work well. I’ve found that I have to push back the Chamber, and even more so the Solos (less dry signal, more verb signal) to make them blend well.

You may already be a knowledgeable eq’er, but I’ve recently found that cutting about 4db at around 5200mhz can do wonders for VSL strings. At bit less proximity and less bow sound !!

WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 22:05
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

WOW- again WOW.. I'm an idiot!

I didn't even think to double the midi track... there is a very small drawback there... but the time it would save would be worth it. I usually push back the chamber and the solos a bit more also... but not 'pushing back' in the verb... Half the time I want that bow sound brought out more... half the time I don't... It  depends on what it's for really. But I usually use the master fader, adjust volume, and adjust a little bit of dry/wet to get the sound. Honestly, I typically play with it until it sounds right... lol

I am knoledgeable enough to know ABOUT the point of cutting out certain frequencies, etc... and I do it from time to achieve better sound.. but I haven't read enough on it or played with it enough to feel compitent. I've been wanting to learn more eq for a better mix. The only tips I've seen really are compression in some cases (or some people say all cases) - cutting out or boosting certain frequencies with eq - and some reverb stuff lately. I feel I almost have it... but that I'm still missing something, some last thing to make samples shine! Big Smile

-Sean 

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 22:29
by shawngibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Posts 187

-Have you tried just doubling the midi track (from the orchestra strings ) for a seperate chamber & also solo track?

This may be newb to you, but: A book I'm reading suggests, or rather often says, to take a doubled instrument, use midi to transpose it one semitone, then take that track and move it down one semitone, note-wise. It apparently forces a new sample so that you're always playing different 'instruments' if you have say Vi1 and Vi2 tracks.

Such would load the same number of samples (the full violins for example) but each track would sound slightly different, that's the theory anyways:)

VEP, VIP, Suite, SEE+; Solo Strings I+II; Chamber Strings I+II, App Strings I+II, Dim Brass (waiting for Extended!); Special Keyboards, Piccolo and Horn downloads; Other: EWie Symphonic Choirs, Ra, TDS, SD2, VoP; Absynth 5, Battery 3; Trilian; Superior Drummer 2 a microphone and a rubber band in my teeth:)
Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 22:38
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

Yeah, Beat K. has mentioned it on here and his tutorial site also. I actually don't prefer it though. To me, it's a lot of work to get a result that leaves my library 'handicaped' as it isn't the 'normal setup' (if that makes any sense). I don't want to take the time to explain that more, lol

I actually use other methods which again won't be wise to detail on here (long explanation) but I add the chamber and solo vi's to it so that it will sound right.

Of course, a nicefull featured divisi string library... cough cough... might solve this ... cough cough... problem. Wink wink, nudge nudge. Big Smile

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 22:59
by shawngibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Posts 187

Ah ok. 

I'd like to 'divisi' my Solo Strings, that would be awesome. I'm not sure if I can or not, but I suspect not since I don't see any presets.

At what point do you stop wishing for more and start writing music? I have 5 songs from my original setup, VE standard + a few products, and 2 new songs that I'd like all to turn into something, yet I'm sitting here trying to make my system perfect because of all the new stuff I've bought. At some point, it has to stop, and I need to make music, otherwise it was all for nought.

ps: are Beat's downloads of value if you have some stuff, but not all? I've seen his site, of course, just not looked since I got Cubase 6.

VEP, VIP, Suite, SEE+; Solo Strings I+II; Chamber Strings I+II, App Strings I+II, Dim Brass (waiting for Extended!); Special Keyboards, Piccolo and Horn downloads; Other: EWie Symphonic Choirs, Ra, TDS, SD2, VoP; Absynth 5, Battery 3; Trilian; Superior Drummer 2 a microphone and a rubber band in my teeth:)
Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 23:04
by shawngibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Posts 187

On topic with the tread, I do have a HUGE request: Matrix switching by controller. It would allow me to just look in a lane in Cubase like I do with the X and Y. Right now, it's keyswitch-only because VST 3 doesn't support program changes. Drag:(

VEP, VIP, Suite, SEE+; Solo Strings I+II; Chamber Strings I+II, App Strings I+II, Dim Brass (waiting for Extended!); Special Keyboards, Piccolo and Horn downloads; Other: EWie Symphonic Choirs, Ra, TDS, SD2, VoP; Absynth 5, Battery 3; Trilian; Superior Drummer 2 a microphone and a rubber band in my teeth:)
Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 23:15
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 258

That transpostition trick is really only necessary when you have Vl. I & Vl. II playing unison. When they do do unison, I make sure to use different patches !

WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Mon, Jul 11 2011 23:31
by shawngibson
Joined on Tue, Sep 23 2008, Posts 187

OK so I've read enough of this post, been following it, to know that there is a legitimaste concern, passing from sample to sample, when the articulation is different. Maybe in real life it works, certain articulations are louder than others, but I'm not sure how you would fix that in a sample library. Artifically construct the next articulation? If you think about it in real life, you'd have a track per articulation. The question is how much are you willing to artificiate it for sample/time sake, no?

A real player is going to do what comes natural, sometimes loud, sometimes maybe not so much, in the next phrase/note. I can't imagine a sample player dealing with this unless they take the Play approach amd don't deal with it at all. Who wants 16 channels for a very basic violin? I think VSL did the best they could, but maybe some more programming is in order. Who knows.

VEP, VIP, Suite, SEE+; Solo Strings I+II; Chamber Strings I+II, App Strings I+II, Dim Brass (waiting for Extended!); Special Keyboards, Piccolo and Horn downloads; Other: EWie Symphonic Choirs, Ra, TDS, SD2, VoP; Absynth 5, Battery 3; Trilian; Superior Drummer 2 a microphone and a rubber band in my teeth:)
Posted on Wed, Jul 13 2011 13:58
by mohurwitzmusic
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2010, Posts 297
In the upcoming version of VIPro, will it be possible to paste mixer states to multiple cells at once? Also, what about being able to save custom voice presets for auto divsi? It would be very helpful in setting up my Dimension Brass matrices.
www.midikinetics.com
Lemur touch controllers for composers and music producers.
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