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SIBELIUS 7
Last post Thu, Sep 01 2011 by Fiery Angel, 66 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Aug 02 2011 00:00
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497
Tralen wrote:
I wonder if there's a way of accomplishing the same thing, setting a general soundset for all my instruments and adding exceptions if needed. I noticed that on VSL soundsets, the instruments are declared as part of a switch-category, which contains the instructions for the articulations, thus, If one uses an undeclared instrument, it would be unaffected by the articulations. So I would need to know all instruments I would need beforehand. Is it possible to make Sibelius apply the instructions to ALL instruments, regardless?

I have no idea, but you've got my attention. Hopefully someone else could answer. I'll certainly look into it when I have time.

My custom presets are all as consistant as possible so I'm definately interested!

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Tue, Aug 02 2011 17:38
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 234

What would be a fantastic feature of such a software would be a function that creates matrices while the piece increases, so you start with only one basic articulation per instrument (probably a sustain with a mediium or hard attack, so that you can play around on the keyboard), and the first time you add for instance a staccato symbol in the music, a new cell in the VI will be created, along with the corresponding control change settings to trigger it. When you later decide to remove this articulation, you can let check the software for unused patches, delete them and shift the other ones.

THAT would be a real Time saver!!!

Posted on Tue, Aug 02 2011 17:57
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1020

That was my concept. Patches and articulations would be loaded and triggered according to musical typography; if VI Player "saw" a violin line with a slur, that included some repetitions, beginning on mezzo-piano and going all the way up to fortissimo at Music= 120 for example, it would load the appropriate patch(es) for the articulation(s) and the expression(s), choosing the right repetitions for the tempo and automatically X-fade the dynamics. Of course not all users would agree with the default interpretation and - like with Sibelius/Finale - would adjust the values to their liking, however that kind of integration would save me tremendous time, even in the compositional stages (sketching, etc.).

P.S.: Where the text reads 'BLOCKED EXPRESSION' I have written 'e-x-p-r-e-s-s-i-o-n-(s)' without the dashes, it won't allow me to write the word by itself without turning it in caps and adding 'BLOCKED'. I have no idea what browser bug that is...

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Tue, Aug 02 2011 20:58
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497
MassMover wrote:
the first time you add for instance a staccato symbol in the music, a new cell in the VI will be created, along with the corresponding control change settings to trigger it.

At least in my experience with VI Pro, the entire purpose of even having the matrices is to customize things to work for you. I started using VSL with VI Pro so I don't know VI very well... maybe such a feature would work for VI. The problem is, that if you want to load things on an 'as-needed' basis, I would imagine you'd want a Solid State Drive, with the feature coming in VI Pro 2.0 - That may be harder to implement in VI, who knows...

I don't think it would work to have VI load patches and create cells based on what Sibelius is doing. If instead the cells were already loaded and VI simply switched cells, I think that would work. The idea of VI seeing a slur from Sibelius and switching to the appropriate patch would seem hard to properly implement unless there is a way to send all of that information from sibelius to VI, slurs and all. If it couldn't be done then I could only imagine a VSL notation program to accomplish this.

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Tue, Aug 02 2011 23:35
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 234

I am talking about the imaginary VSL Notation Software.

The cells being loaded already is basically what we have with the sound sets for the SE; and a huge sound set for all libraries  exists; if you ask andi in the notation forum he might send it to you.

Problem with all articulations pre-loaded simply simply is performance. Thatswhy the idea of loading them just on demand: it’s exactly what you describe as "customizing", but the programm does the customization for you.

Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 00:07
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

So 'VSL Notation software" inteprets the notation and either picks the best patch OR makes a time-stretched patch that crossfades to a tremelo (as I would have made on my own) all automatically?

Don't get me wrong... I would LOVE such a programming masterpeice... but I doubt that will happen about 10 times more than I doubt the VSL notation software happening. I simply think the programming-man power and cpu load would be great enough that I don't see it happening any time soon. That's seems more like a 'years down the road' thing to come. Maybe I'm wrong.

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 01:53
by Tralen
Joined on Sat, May 08 2010, Brasil, Posts 52

I don't know. We should remember that VSL developed softwares that are unusual for a sample library. Vienna Ensemble, Vienna Suite, I believe those were developed because VSL felt the available alternatives were actually interfering with the quality of their samples. So they designed their own software and now they are able to tell us: "see, this is how VSL is *supposed* to sound".

The same concept can be applied to a notation software: "the available notation software is not good enough for our samples, lets build our own". Of course, I'm dreaming aloud here, but if there were a bigger uproar of the user base, I'm sure they wouldn't pass the chance of making a dent in that market. I always felt that the piano roll is the biggest gap between the traditional musician and the midi-trained musician, by stablishing an integrated notation platform VSL could very well capture a large part of the userbase of the competition.

Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 03:50
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497
Tralen wrote:
"the available notation software is not good enough for our samples, lets build our own"

You've got me convinced. I realized the point about VSL making software for those reasons and I mostly view it the same way.

Tralen wrote:
I always felt that the piano roll is the biggest gap between the traditional musician and the midi-trained musician

Yes, yes, and yes! I think much more naturally in notation. I prefer it.

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 17:09
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1020

And there's also the Notion SLE experiment (which I own), that plays along with any changes on the fly, using about 2-4Gb of RAM only. So a VSL notation package would better that, and loading times (after the initial one) should be non-existent to minimal on a big system, since we mostly make one alteration on one instrument/staff at a time. There are notational reasons and some bugs that didn't endear me to Notion, but I think a VSL Studio Package (Pro) which would take one from inspiration all the way to post-mastering would be phenomenal. 

As with the other post I had created on this topic, there is no contribution at all from the 'brass'. Come on guys, you can at least tell us not to waste our "breaths" on this one...

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 17:40
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497
Errikos wrote:
there is no contribution at all from the 'brass'. Come on guys, you can at least tell us not to waste our "breaths" on this one...

Yeah! ...what he said! lol

It would be nice to know that VSL was working on something like this... but whether they would even consider it is something I don't picture them making vocal at all. I imagine they wouldn't want to create an expectation unless they know for sure that it will happen.

I also think that most VSL users are not using notation. I think we've already covered the 'why' there... but because of this, if VSL has any real sense of being able to gauge this... I think it wouldn't be in this forum section. VSL would have to see how all users react to the idea of such a program. I believe that most people would love it!

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 18:08
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1020

I'm not sure; I think most people using Symphobia and Cinescamples might not be using notation, but I think there are a lot of film-composers and orchestrators who have used VSL products long before those products came about, and who still do. I believe that all these people still use notation proper at least at some stage of production - there's no reason for them not to, so I think the majority of their customers would qualify for such a package. However, this would be a leap for VSL, as they would have to either hire new blood, or pay Sibelius/Finale/NoteAbilityPro/Lilypond etc. for a collaboration on a VSL specific notation platform on the side, whatever.

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 18:22
by Tralen
Joined on Sat, May 08 2010, Brasil, Posts 52
Errikos wrote:

However, this would be a leap for VSL, as they would have to either hire new blood, or pay Sibelius/Finale/NoteAbilityPro/Lilypond etc. for a collaboration on a VSL specific notation platform on the side, whatever.

I don't see this as big leap. VSL products are already tailored to respond to midi, to handle most of the available audio hardware and software, and most of all, to interact with each other. Like you said before, the hard work is already done. They have the reverb, the host, the mixer AND the samples. Making a simple midi-notation platform shouldn't be that difficult, unless they intend to handle the other aspect of notation: printing and publishing. This is where I agree a big leap would be necessary, as the technology involved is completely alien to audio.

But, if the midi-notation scope is kept, and the software only handles composing and performing, I believe the hard work was already done. Of course we users would need to bring the composition to sibelius or finale for printing, or maybe to a DAW for fine-tuning a mock up.

Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 18:27
by bogdan
Joined on Fri, Apr 18 2008, Edmonton, Posts 256

Hi Errikos,

I have to say that NoteAbilityPro really impressed me!!

At that notation quality , adding  a VSL playback ....is going to be a real  breathtaking !!

Anyway, any other notation program which will be willing to embrace VSL probably would be a great assest !!

That doesn't mean that VSL has to abandon their own idea (if they have one) about a notation software integrated in their own package ;))

 Nice and intersting thread

Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 19:14
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1020

Hey Bogdan, you see there's a lot out there that's impressive but not marketed well. 

And Tralen, I hope you're right, however I was hoping for a notation program that would replace Sibelius for me (not just for printing), that means a program where the Rite of Spring, Daphnis and Chloe, or Harry Potter III could be fully input and interpreted - let alone a late Lutoslawcki work. I'd certainly not be happy with a VSL notation program that could just handle divisi Zimmer quavers, a few Taiko hits, and some brass held-chords; I don't think the professional clients I mentioned earlier would be either. Now if a proper notation program would not be a big deal for VSL to develop, so much the better!

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 19:30
by bogdan
Joined on Fri, Apr 18 2008, Edmonton, Posts 256

I'm wondering about the player capability of notationability pro since they have not posted anything in this matter.

I read through their features and it says that suports 6 audio units ..but nothing more.It would be intersting to hear some of their notation features played by some library.

err..wait in one pic I think I've seen  synful orchestra ...

Regarding the VSL notation software, I think I agree with Errikos ..indeed is better to avoid aproaching things just for the sake of having something covered...we have a lot of other guys doing exactly the same thing.

 But if they really start looking into it, is going to take a little bit longer till we get something profesional with full implementation of contemporary music notation and interpretation...it's a lot of work to cover ..

Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 22:24
by Tralen
Joined on Sat, May 08 2010, Brasil, Posts 52
bogdan wrote:

 But if they really start looking into it, is going to take a little bit longer till we get something profesional with full implementation of contemporary music notation and interpretation...it's a lot of work to cover ..

The reality, like Errikos said, is that the majority doesn't use notation as their prime composing tool, therefore expecting VSL to take that road is feable speculation. But, I think, if they take the chance, they would captivate a lot of users that, like myself, are trying to settle with one library and one notation software, two concepts that, at the moment, appear to be mutually exclusive.

The lack of interest of VSL people in the topic also disallows our imagination.

Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 23:17
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497
Tralen wrote:

the majority doesn't use notation as their prime composing tool, therefore expecting VSL to take that road is feable speculation. But, I think, if they take the chance, they would captivate a lot of users that, like myself, are trying to settle with one library and one notation software, two concepts that, at the moment, appear to be mutually exclusive.

The lack of interest of VSL people in the topic also disallows our imagination.

Just because most VSL users use a traditional DAW doesn't mean that they
don't want Notation. I don't use VSL and Sibelius, I use cubase... but
if I felt like I could adequately use notation to compose, I'd do it in a heartbeat! There are others who do also, so the idea isn't ready to dismiss.

Question for anyone:

What about a "Vienna Composer" instead of V-notation, basically a VSL DAW instead? In Cubase VST Expression is nice, but still isn't quite built in a way that perfectly compliments VSL. DAW's have piano rolls AND notation and we all know there's a gap there. Most times I prefer notation, but no daw adequately accomplishes this with the complexity of VSL and the piano roll certainly has uses that traditional notation doesn't serve as well. So instead of a new concept, simply give VSL these features.

VE is already half way there... I agree with the points that VSL has a lot of what they need already done. Imagine "Vienna DAW" or even "VE Daw edition" or just a new version of VE - The DAW could be built on VE. VE is already a VST host, a mixer, a network program, and so on. In addition to it's features, just add midi sequencing, with a piano roll and notation editor and you're done. Maybe add some VI or VI Pro features that work better for playback in those editor - but I think it would be much easier to build these features in VE than create a new program. It wouldn't need to have every feature that Cubase has. Cubase, Pro Tools, DP, and others don't all have the exact same features and design. VSL could have VE simply add what VSL users want from DAW's that we currently aren't getting... Personally, I think this approach would solve a lot of problems without creating new ones.

Any thoughts on this? I love the idea.

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 23:32
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1020

I believe I had mentioned exactly that on the old post, which is that VSL should go ahead and create a DAW complete with notation, since only the sequencer and automation are missing from what they have developed already.

For the record I actually said that most people do use traditional and sophisticated notation software, especially at the high and mid-high end of the industry - as well as some of us at the other end of the spectrumSad

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 23:36
by bogdan
Joined on Fri, Apr 18 2008, Edmonton, Posts 256

Hey Traien,

Being myself involved in music ( grad student and also T.A) I can definetely say that there are classes of composition and orchestration which are waiting for something serious from this point of view. For example, where I study, they rely on Finale, but just for printing out scores...in rest they are on their knees beging pianists to play some midi files for them or waiting reluctantly in the line for some conductors to play their pieces. 

  I think is a matter of marketing also. VSL should be present in every major university to prove that the "sound" can be reached and there are major progresses in this area. A flyer sent to music departments could cost a little but I think could be a benefit in the end. There is definetly another segment of musicians involved in music notation.

  The lack of interest from VSL people doesn't mean that the notation world is at its end-- the way I see it is more optimistic .It can act as an impuls from VSL to campain for gathering more notation composers  to acces VSL site.

Posted on Wed, Aug 03 2011 23:43
by bogdan
Joined on Fri, Apr 18 2008, Edmonton, Posts 256

iscorefilm wrote:

Tralen wrote:

the majority doesn't use notation as their prime composing tool, therefore expecting VSL to take that road is feable speculation. But, I think, if they take the chance, they would captivate a lot of users that, like myself, are trying to settle with one library and one notation software, two concepts that, at the moment, appear to be mutually exclusive.

The lack of interest of VSL people in the topic also disallows our imagination.

Just because most VSL users use a traditional DAW doesn't mean that they
don't want Notation. I don't use VSL and Sibelius, I use cubase... but
if I felt like I could adequately use notation to compose, I'd do it in a heartbeat! There are others who do also, so the idea isn't ready to dismiss.

Question for anyone:

What about a "Vienna Composer" instead of V-notation, basically a VSL DAW instead? In Cubase VST Expression is nice, but still isn't quite built in a way that perfectly compliments VSL. DAW's have piano rolls AND notation and we all know there's a gap there. Most times I prefer notation, but no daw adequately accomplishes this with the complexity of VSL and the piano roll certainly has uses that traditional notation doesn't serve as well. So instead of a new concept, simply give VSL these features.

VE is already half way there... I agree with the points that VSL has a lot of what they need already done. Imagine "Vienna DAW" or even "VE Daw edition" or just a new version of VE - The DAW could be built on VE. VE is already a VST host, a mixer, a network program, and so on. In addition to it's features, just add midi sequencing, with a piano roll and notation editor and you're done. Maybe add some VI or VI Pro features that work better for playback in those editor - but I think it would be much easier to build these features in VE than create a new program. It wouldn't need to have every feature that Cubase has. Cubase, Pro Tools, DP, and others don't all have the exact same features and design. VSL could have VE simply add what VSL users want from DAW's that we currently aren't getting... Personally, I think this approach would solve a lot of problems without creating new ones.

Any thoughts on this? I love the idea.

"What about a "Vienna Composer" instead of V-notation, basically a VSL DAW instead?

Knowing the quality of this company, I would even pay in advance for such a feature, and I 'm  talking seriously here.

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