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Strings running out of bow and breaking double stops in Finale
Last post Sat, Feb 11 2012 by andi, 13 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Feb 03 2012 05:55
by Newbis
Joined on Mon, Nov 16 2009, Posts 39
Hi,
  I'm having the following two problems with strings using VSL Special Edition on Finale 2010:
  1. On long sustain notes, sometimes the strings run out of bow. With real strings, a violin player would just shift bows imperceptibly; in orchestral strings, the players can switch bows at different times. Sometimes, by taking less bow, one could also play a long sustain note without running out of bow. However, VSL seems to run out of bow sometimes. Is there any workaround for this?
  2. On some double stops, VSL plays one of the notes very short, like a grace note, and then moves to the other note. So it's not a true double stop. This does not happen on all double stops. For example, using the solo violin, I notice that it does this on major third double stops, but it does sixths correctly. Although sixths are easier to perform as double stops, thirds are certainly possible, even by a relative beginner. These are not technically difficult double stops, so I don't know why VSL breaks them. Any suggestions on how to get around this behavior?

Thanks!
Posted on Fri, Feb 03 2012 07:19
by FredB
Joined on Sat, Apr 01 2006, Montreal, Posts 668

Hi,

Newbis wrote:
On long sustain notes, sometimes the strings run out of bow
.

Thats because Finale is triggering the legato patch when writing a slur symbol. Some legato patch are not looped. Try replacing it by the Legato-sus patch in the instrument matrix. This one is made for long sustained notes.

Newbis wrote:
On some double stops, VSL plays one of the notes very short, like a grace note, and then moves to the other note

For the same reason, when using slurres, Finale triggers the Legato patch. Vienna Instrument does not play polyphonic legato, it's alway's monophonic. Vienna Instrument Pro does . Or you could replace the patch by a Sustain one. Or even modify human playback settings. But I'm not using finale so I can't tell how.

Good Luck

Fred

Master: Imac I7 32Gb Late 2013 - - OsX 10.13.6
Slave: Corei7 6800k 64gb - Win 10
Soft: Logic X 10.4.4 - ProTools 12.x - VE Pro 6 - VI Pro 2 - MIR
Posted on Fri, Feb 03 2012 12:30
by Errikos
Joined on Tue, Jun 12 2007, Posts 1021

@FredB: Off-topic Fred, what are your reasons for switching to Cubase if you don't mind? Is Expression Mapping that good?

If you can't notate/MIDI it yourself, it's NOT your music!

In these modern days to be vulgar, illiterate, common and vicious, seems to give a man a marvelous infinity of rights that his honest fathers never dreamed of. - Oscar Wilde
Posted on Fri, Feb 03 2012 14:56
by Newbis
Joined on Mon, Nov 16 2009, Posts 39
FredB wrote:

Thats because Finale is triggering the legato patch when writing a slur symbol. Some legato patch are not looped. Try replacing it by the Legato-sus patch in the instrument matrix. This one is made for long sustained notes. ... For the same reason, when using slurres, Finale triggers the Legato patch. Vienna Instrument does not play polyphonic legato, it's alway's monophonic.



Ah, that explains it, thanks. That's exactly what's happening.

FredB wrote:

So basically if I pay 145 Euro for this software, it will basically play everything the same except without the various bugs and glitches? But for existing projects, will I have to set up all the instruments again? Or can I save the VSL project and then open it into the VSL Pro? (Hard to believe that will be possible without making Finale crash but we'll see....)



Also, one thing...I'm using Vienna Ensemble, since I need multiple instruments at once. So that would mean that to have it be bug-free, I'd have to go up to Vienna Ensemble Pro (235 Euro), not Vienna Instruments Pro, right?

FredB wrote:
Or you could replace the patch by a Sustain one. Or even modify human playback settings. But I'm not using finale so I can't tell how.

Good Luck



For people who know Finale, is there anyway to force a given VSL patch (e.g., sustain) on a given note? I always wondered about this too, because on some instruments, VSL doesn't always follow the appropriate patch for Finale's notation...e.g., sometimes the trombone plays staccato unless I select sustain in the VSL ensemble player, and that sometimes does the trick although occasionally it makes it just stay on whatever patch I selected, whereas what I really want is for it do whatever patch is appropriate at a given time.
Posted on Fri, Feb 03 2012 15:31
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3091

Hello Newbis!

I am not sure what bugs and glitches you are talking about. Anyway, you can get a free Vienna Instruments Pro Demo license at the following location and try everything out:
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/211/497/537/1456/1083.htm

With the Vienna Ensemble function "Convert project to Vienna Instruments Pro" it is possible to do as the name suggests. So you don't have to rebuild your setup.

Vienna Ensemble Pro has three main advantages in comparison to Vienna Ensemble:
1.) 3rd party instruments hosting
2.) Network capablities
3.) Vienna MIR hosting

Basically if you don't need these functions, you don't need Vienna Ensemble Pro.

If an instrument doesn't change articulations as supposed, it may help to add this instrument to your score with the Setup Wizard once again. Then you can cut and paste the content from the old staff to the new one.

Best regards,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Feb 03 2012 21:53
by Gusfmm
Joined on Sat, Jul 02 2011, USA, Posts 67

 Newbis,

I always say that VIP is one of the best engineered music software pieces out there. It is a must, if you're serious about using VSL libraries. You need to familiarize yourself with your libraries articulations and spend some quality time programming instrument matrixes that you feel comfortable with and provide the flexibility you need. VIP, again, allows you to do so much that it's a cornerstone for the effective use of your libraries.

Re- Finale, there are several ways to skin the cat. One is to look into programming (customizing) expressions, via the Expression Designer dialog, as you can implement MIDI control, patch changes, etc. that way and control what row or cell you want under what conditions. Another commonly used approach is to use Keyswitches- you can perhaps devote a certain layer in your instrument staff to switch among your rows and columns.

Hope this helps, at least to get you started.

Posted on Sun, Feb 05 2012 22:15
by FredB
Joined on Sat, Apr 01 2006, Montreal, Posts 668

Excuses for this off topic post...

Errikos wrote:

Yes Errikos,

Expression Maps are the primary reason why I switched. If I was not dealing with tons of articulation, i'd problobably stayed on Logic. And I don't miss to much the environment wich is pretty cool but can become really time consuming.

AU midi port limitation is the second reason, even with the workarounds. And Cubase is really made for multi-outs instruments like VE Pro and Kontakt.

If Logic is comming with these corrections I'll surely comeback. Logic is still more Mac friendly to me. And I don't like the mixer in Cubase. But no DAW is perfect.

Logic and Cubase may be the most similar DAW on Mac, both really efficiant with virtual instruments. I start working with Digital Performer for 7 years, then Logic 7 years and I'm working with PT10 on final stage of some projects (recording session-mixing-exporting). But 95% of my working time is pent on midi programming. I don't like to switch but I try to maximize my workflow and when I feel that the tool I'm working on is not suited for my needs, I'm not hesitate.

The Final Cut Pro X update makes me think that maybe the next Logic version may cut in the pro features. But who knows? That's one thing that's scary with the pro products at Apple: we never know until its done. 

I think Cubase is better suited for VE Pro integration and for purely midi-keyswitching programming. For other type of projects, Logic may be better.

Just an opinion

Fred

Master: Imac I7 32Gb Late 2013 - - OsX 10.13.6
Slave: Corei7 6800k 64gb - Win 10
Soft: Logic X 10.4.4 - ProTools 12.x - VE Pro 6 - VI Pro 2 - MIR
Posted on Sun, Feb 05 2012 22:26
by FredB
Joined on Sat, Apr 01 2006, Montreal, Posts 668

On last thing about Expression Maps.

When working with different sample libraries and differents switch method (keyswitch vs CC or Prog,Ch.) when copy a region from one track to another, the switching method will adapt to the librairies automaticaly. There is some glitches but when you get to know it, its working like a charm. And it still a pretty new technology so I expect some improvements to come.

Fred

Master: Imac I7 32Gb Late 2013 - - OsX 10.13.6
Slave: Corei7 6800k 64gb - Win 10
Soft: Logic X 10.4.4 - ProTools 12.x - VE Pro 6 - VI Pro 2 - MIR
Posted on Mon, Feb 06 2012 01:28
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2628

I am trying Finale too, 

I am not impressed yet

Importing midi is very basic 

You cannot import in an orchestral template without loosing the tempo track

you cannot scroll, edit whyle it is playing 

It does not work with the DVD collection

Finale is VERY basic compared to Logic !!

does not support 5.1

I have also strange interpretations when the score is very heavy

It does not worth it's 600 euro

You gett better support from forum user than from the support !

I have to do more tests !

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Fri, Feb 10 2012 05:36
by Newbis
Joined on Mon, Nov 16 2009, Posts 39
andi wrote:

Vienna Ensemble Pro has three main advantages in comparison to Vienna Ensemble:
1.) 3rd party instruments hosting
2.) Network capablities
3.) Vienna MIR hosting

Basically if you don't need these functions, you don't need Vienna Ensemble Pro.


Thank-you very much for your response. Unfortunately, I am somewhat confused about the various products. I started out using Vienna Instruments (VI) but found it didn't serve my needs because it deals with only one instrument at a time. So now I'm using Vienna Ensemble (VE). But, as revealed in this thread, it has a limitation of not being able to perform double-stops in "legato" mode. Hence, the suggestion that I should try Vienna Instruments Pro (VIP). But won't that have the limitation of only supporting one instrument at a time (just like VI), putting me back at square one? However, when I look at the description, it seems to have many advantages, such as microtonal tunings and range extensions, that aren't listed in Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP). So suppose I want all the advantage of VIP, but I need more than one instrument at a time. Does VIP work "together" with Vienna Ensemble in some way so that I can have multiple instruments but the advantages of VIP? Or does VEP contain all the advantages listed with VIP, even though the page on VEP doesn't list these? Or does VIP support multiple instruments (unlike VI)?

Thanks for your help!

Posted on Fri, Feb 10 2012 09:50
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3091

Hello Newbis!

Vienna Instruments and Vienna Instruments Pro are our instrument players.

Vienna Ensemble and Vienna Ensemble pro are our instrument hosts and mixing engines.

You can load Vienna Instruments Pro with the free Vienna Ensemble version.

I hope this clarifies your questions.

Best regards,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Feb 10 2012 22:38
by Newbis
Joined on Mon, Nov 16 2009, Posts 39
andi wrote:

Hello Newbis!

Vienna Instruments and Vienna Instruments Pro are our instrument players.

Vienna Ensemble and Vienna Ensemble pro are our instrument hosts and mixing engines.

You can load Vienna Instruments Pro with the free Vienna Ensemble version.

I hope this clarifies your questions.

Best regards,
Andi


Thanks, this gets me a little closer. So, I downloaded VIP and was able to enter the demo license (after rebooting). Sure enough, when I select VIP instead of VE, the violin can play double-stops in legato mode. However, there's a new problem: when it tries to do legato double-stops, it does some weird slide on the top note sometimes. For example, suppose, the violin is playing a C major scale in thirds upward from middle C:


EFGABCDE
CDEFGABC


And suppose that we do that under slurs...either one big slur, or divided up with one bow for every two notes. In either case, here's what happens: The first two notes are in tune, and so are the 5th and 6th notes. But the other four notes have some odd sliding around on the top note, as if the violinist having trouble with the fingering on the upper positions...so pitch-wise, it comes out sounding something like this, with glissandi between the F# (which I don't want) and G, etc.:


E-F-F#GG#AB-CC#DD#E-
C-D-E-  F-  G-A-B-  C-  


Obviously, to play scales in the thirds, some sliding is required, but in real life, the violinist would tend to smooth this out, and the sliding would occur between the notes, whereas here it's on the beat. How can I disable that weird sliding behavior and have it play the notes in tune?


One other issue: When I use Vienna Ensemble, it appears that it's still using Vienna Instruments as the back end, not VIP, because it's doing the bottom notes as grace notes again. So I looked around for how to make VE "connect" with VIP.


At first, I thought I had it: Right near where I can add a "New Instrument," there's something that says "Add VI Pro." I thought aha, this is it, but whenever I select that, all it does is bring up a message box that says something like "Vienna Ensemble has stopped working" and telling me that Windows is trying to solve the problem, and then asking me if I want to send Microsoft information about why VE stopped working.


So I'm still stuck...How do I make VE use VIP and not give this message about it not working?

Posted on Sat, Feb 11 2012 11:07
by andi
Joined on Wed, Feb 18 2004, Vienna, Posts 3091

Hi Newbis!

The polyphonic legato mode makes a legato transition from the note with the smallest interval from the currently played notes. So if you have a d and an f followed by an e and a g, both transitions will come from the f. So this works better for voices with more than a third in between.

If you load a project that was created with Vienna Instruments, of course this project doesn't load Vienna Instruments Pro by itself now. You can convert this project with the function File/Convert project to Vienna Instruments Pro though. New VI Pro channels can be added with the "Add VI Pro" button in the lower left of Vienna Ensemble. If you are experiencing problems, I recommend updating Vienna Ensemble and the eLicenser Control Center. The latest version can be found here:
http://www.vsl.co.at/en/68/428/515/211.htm
http://www.elicenser.net/en/latest_downloads.html

Best regards,
Andi

Andreas Olszewski
Vienna Symphonic Library
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