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VSL Beginner Path
Last post Wed, May 08 2013 by Conquer, 22 replies.
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Posted on Sun, May 05 2013 14:52
by Symfoniq
Joined on Sat, May 04 2013, Posts 45

I've been saving up my hobby money for a while with the intention of jumping into the world of the sampled orchestra. I've been listening to every demo of every sample library I can find over the past year. I've watched every walkthrough on YouTube. And unlike a lot of people on the various computer music forums, I hear things I like in pretty much all of the major libraries, which makes choosing my path difficult. As someone who was inspired by John Williams at a young age, I've heard some people say that VSL isn't the best choice if you want a "Hollywood sound," but I think there are some problems with this argument. The first problem is that there are actually a lot of different Hollywood sounds: Hans Zimmer doesn't sound like John Williams. The second problem with this argument is that the best John Williams mockups I've heard were made by Jay Bacal using VSL. So I'm giving VSL a serious look.


I've considered the VSL Special Edition Complete Bundle, which is about $2,000 in the United States, as well as the Symphonic Cube Standard, which is about $3,000. It seems to me that the Symphonic Cube is a better value, but I'm not sure. I'd also like to purchase Vienna Instruments Pro right out of the gate, so that's about $175 that is already accounted for.


Here's my dilemma: I'd also like to get in on the early pricing for Vienna Dimension Strings, but then I couldn't afford the Symphonic Cube. I'd have to get the Special Edition Complete Bundle instead. I mean no offense to anyone when I say that none of the demos for VSL SE have blown me away, but it's hard to say how much this is a reflection on the capabilities of the SE library itself--maybe the SE demos aren't taking advantage of the improvements offered by VI Pro and MIR Pro, for example. So if you were in my shoes, would you purchase the Symphonic Cube, or would you purchase the Special Edition Complete Bundle + Dimension Strings?


My other dilemma is that it seems that MIR Pro is almost mandatory to get the most out of Vienna Symphonic Library. I think I'm going to be disappointed with my purchase if I'm not able to make VSL sound convincing. Some of VSL's competitors have amazing room sound baked into the samples. While there are certainly some downsides to that approach (I'm not trying to start a debate about the pros and cons), I do want to be able to achieve a beautiful "finished" sound with my Vienna libraries. So even though I'm a VSL beginner, should I make room in the budget for MIR Pro (perhaps MIR Pro 24), or will I get acceptable results using an inexpensive reverb like Valhalla Room? It looks like I just missed a sale on MIR Pro, and I could buy a lot of downloadable instruments for the cost of MIR Pro and a RoomPack.


Thanks in advance for your help.

Posted on Sun, May 05 2013 17:12
by Casiquire
Joined on Sat, May 01 2010, Posts 325

Personally, I wouldn't recommend going with the Special Editions.  I just don't feel that the upgrade paths make it a worthwile investment if you're already sure you're ready to dive right in to VSL.  And believe me, you'll be looking to upgrade from the Special Edition pretty quickly--all the essentials are there, yes, but I quickly found myself looking for non-vibrato, or faster legato, etc.  I think Dimension Strings is a great buy but from what I read it actually helps to have other sections to blend it with for more clarity and to have greater control over the size of the section, which makes the Symphonic Cube a good starting point since you have a couple of different section sizes in it already.  Also do you have a lot of good effects plugins?  Like good reverb, EQ, etc.?  The libraries are very dry, so keep that in mind too.  All in all you can definitely do something with that budget, it just might take a bit of thinking to get the best value.

Posted on Sun, May 05 2013 17:48
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

Hi Symfoniq. Currently, Symphonic Cube (Full version) and SE Complete Bundle seem to be more or less the same price. The SE Bundle instruments are in the main cut-down versions of the full collections found in the Cube, with less velocity layers and tone-interval (rather than chromatic) sampling. However if you audition them side by side, the difference is fairly negligible for the most part.

SE Complete Bundle contains certain instruments not found in the Cube:

STRINGS
Solo Strings & Chamber Strings con sordino (with mutes) samples, Appassionata Strings

WOODWINDS
Bass flute, Oboe d’Amore, Heckelphone, Basset horn, Contrabass clarinet, Bassoon 2

SAXES
Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone & Bass saxophones
 
BRASS
Trumpet in Bb, Fanfare Trumpets (6 players), Cornet, Flugelhorn, Alto trombone, Euphonium

EXTRAS
Vienna Choir, Bösendorfer Imperial Grand Piano, Vienna Konzerthaus Organ, Harpsichord, Electric guitar (Overdrive), Concert guitar

The only one in the list I would badly miss is Appassionata Strings, which has the lushest sound of all the VSL string sections.

Personally I don't think MIR is essential; it's just the icing on the cake - the *samples* are the cake! MIR is obviously very effective, but I would check out other makes of reverb before you commit to it.

Dimension Strings is a great tool for specialist string arranging and pointillistic, individual instrument performance-tweaking, but it would be a challenge for a newbie - arguably best to get familiar with the huge number of articulations in the regular VSL string libraries (which can produce fabulous results) first, before diving into the deep end with DS.

Others will disagree, but I'd say buy the Symphonic Cube, get familiar with the instruments and articulations, then maybe add other specialist instruments on a piecemeal basis as and when you need them.

Posted on Sun, May 05 2013 19:27
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1720

Hi Symfoniq

You mentioned Jay Bacal... If you are really a beginner you should take into account that you are farthest away of being able to produce music as we all can listen to the one of Jay, Guy and all the other "old hands". They all have a lot of experience in mixing audio, in using samples, in using the Vienna Sample Player, in using reverbs etc. (more than 10 years). And they have growing up with the products of VSL. So they know all the possibilities of the samples and the software products down to the smallest detail.

Knowing this I would start with one or two full libraries or for example with the SE. It would be a good point of start to buy the Vienna Suite Effects for having all the necessary effects for creating good mixes. MIR could be a good choice as well, but "you need MIR to get the most out of VSL-Libraries" isn't really true. There are also very bad and muddy mixes in the net, which are done with MIR beside good ones of course. MIR can be a help for easy placing all the instruments on a stage. Nevertheless, the result isn't a good one in any case.

Keep in mind that you will get a lot of software with the Vienna Instrument, Vienna Ensemble, the samples and eventually the Suite Effects, MIR,... not to forget Cubase, Logic or...

So if you are starting smaller manner you soon will see, what you really need in addition. Otherwise you will have dilemmas even if you will get a lot of tips here.

With the SE Library you get a lot of Libraries (reduced in their sample amount) but you will see soon that you like the Chamber Strings more than the orchestra strings for example. SE could be a help for choosing Libraies. And: at VSL you never pay for samples twice. You will get the full Libraries for a reduced price...

I maintain that an experienced user could produce a piece with SE in a better way than another one with all the libraries but without experience.

If you have a bit of time (and you need to have a lot of them with samples) you will get a next Christmas offer a New-Year-Offer a Summer-Offer for sure to buy libraries a bit cheaper as normal. And because you buy the right things then you will save money in any case. 

Summing up: Learning "how to fly" you do with a Cessna and not with a much more complex A380... ;-)  

So: Starting with "small equipment" could be an advice. Some are learning fast... so buy the additions 14 days later.

I wish you good decisions and a lot of success

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Sun, May 05 2013 19:31
by bhartmann
Joined on Thu, Mar 10 2011, Posts 170

I have SE and SE+ (although VSL has changed the collection a bit since I bought it) and it is great.  I also have Dimension Strings because the current deal is too good to resist.  I have never used MIR so it must not be required. Smile I don't know anything about Symphonic Cube.  In my opinion, SE and SE+ is a great value.  The Vienna Instruments Pro Player does not add much to the cost but it does give you much more capability to make the most out of your collections so it is very worthwhile (and it is almost required with DS so you can do everything DS is capable of).

The Mighty Konrad
Posted on Sun, May 05 2013 20:04
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1629

I'd like to reiterate Vienna Suite as fairly essential. I plan to buy MIR Pro ASAP from demoing it, but as a beginning strategy it's hard to pin it as 'mandatory', as it calls for a certain knowledge, besides a longer hand at samples manipulation. VS has other tools that bring out the sound of samples, incl. tailored presets per VSL libs that MIR does not obviate.

MacBook Pro 15,1: 2.9 GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
VE Pro 7
Posted on Mon, May 06 2013 05:27
by Peter Alexander
Joined on Wed, Aug 21 2002, Virginia, Posts 642

I'm one of the "old hands" Beat spoke about, except I still have a lot of hair left...

I also came of out Hollywood and coordinated two beta test teams there for VSL. So I have a 10 + history. Flat statement - VSL can do any style you want. The idea that one library is "Hollywood" and the other is "concert" is nonsense. VSL can do it all. I also own the Symphonic Cube and most of the Level 2s. That's how important it is to me.The "sound" you spoke about is one of writer's style and you can do either JW or Hz with Vienna.

From an orchestration perspective, we're in a new game thanks to VSL, in that thanks to the Dimension Brass and Strings, we can now write with dynamic guidelines for orchestra that we've known about for over 100 years. Having everything I do, if I were starting out today, I would consider getting SE 1 and 2 to learn and to give me a sampling of the whole orchestra (which also includes all the strings, piano and harp plus a sax section. Very cool.). I would add to my budget Dimension Brass and Strings, Appassionata Strings 1 (including Level 2), Percussion (including Level 2), Vienna Suite + FORTI/SERTI.

You can always come back and get Woodwinds 1 and 2 if you feel you need them.

This more than meets my needs for the kind of writing I do. It may not be your cup of tea. Others will disagree. VS + FS allows you to create super sounding professional mixes that are clear and not muddied. With Power Pan built into the VI player, spatial placement is a snap. For stage front to stage back, you might want to look at Virtual Sound Stage.

The key to this is learning your instrumental articulations and how to set up simple templates within the Vienna Instruments player that efficiently use these articulations. Next is learning effective MIDI editing. And VSL has plenty of files from Jay Bacal you can download and learn from, and these contain MIDI files, so you can really learn a lot. And Beat, modest guy that he is, has some top tutorials on using the Vienna Instruments player and other things. So check out his web site for sure.

You haven't mentioned a sequencing program. If you don't have one yet, I would strongly suggest looking at Cubase. I use Logic. But I think some things are easier in Cubase, and at some point, though you didn't mention it, you will need to use the Vienna Ensemble in your setup.

Please note, I am not a dealer. This is merely my suggestions based on what I use.

Peter L. Alexander
Author, Professional Orchestration Series
www.soniccontrol.tv
www.alexanderpublishing.com
Posted on Mon, May 06 2013 06:14
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

It is very easy when starting out to spend lots of money, sometimes not wisely.

One advantage with VSL is the wide range of possible writing styles.

IMO, when starting out the SE libraries can make a great deal of sense.  It is a very inexpensive way to get the basic sounds of a full orchestra.  The drawback is, that over time, one generally wants to upgrade to the full libraries.  What complicates things a bit is that for the full libraries, in the end, one needs both the standard and the extended portions of the library, as the extended portion of each library really does help when seeking to emulate real instruments.

As for key libraries, perhaps AP strings (since you are interested in a larger sound), Woodwinds I, Brass I, and basic percussion (perhaps not the extended here).  Given your goals, starting with key full libraries, even the standard portion only, might be the better way to go, since that is a clear goal.

As for software, do consider VI Pro as well, although it is less daunting to start with the free VI (and anything done in the free VI will transfer to VI Pro).  VI Pro adds a great deal of flexilibity, particularly in terms of humanization and the stretching feature (to name two).  The stretching feature will allow you to create different articulations (shorter and longer detaches, for one example).  Particulary if you decide to start out with the SE libraries, VI Pro can help you create articulations to fill in some of the gaps, though it is even more valuable with the full libraries.

One option would be to buy the very minimum number of VSL libraries you need to start out, and then continue to save money in order to take advantage of one of the VSL special offers - VSL generally has special sample purchasing offers about twice a year or so.  If you are a student, generally - though not always - there has been a student special about once a year, at the end of summer/early fall.

Posted on Mon, May 06 2013 07:51
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1720
Peter Alexander wrote:
I'm one of the "old hands" Beat spoke about, except I still have a lot of hair left...

..which I don't have any more... Crying 

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Mon, May 06 2013 09:09
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812

Just to clarify, when Peter speaks of 'Level 2' he's referring to the Extended version of libraries, which add fancier articulations (for example, trills) to the basic styles you get in the Standard version.

Posted on Mon, May 06 2013 13:28
by Symfoniq
Joined on Sat, May 04 2013, Posts 45
I really appreciate the many thoughtful responses. You have left a great first impression of your community.


Based on the advice given here, I watched the Vienna Suite videos in the User Area. It appears that Vienna Suite can give these samples the finished sound I'm looking for, and for less than it would cost to get into MIR Pro. So I'll be adding Vienna Suite to my list, and most likely waiting on MIR Pro.


To answer a couple of your questions, I'm not a student, and my DAW is Cubase.


A couple of posters mentioned Appassionata Strings and "big sound." While I like the thick "Hollywood" sound, I'm also a trained classical musician, and sometimes I like my strings a bit more restrained. Would I be better off purchasing Orchestral Strings and layering it with Dimension Strings when I want a bigger sound? It looks like Orchestral Strings has a lot more articulations (flexibility) than Appassionata Strings for about the same price.



Thanks again.
Posted on Mon, May 06 2013 14:58
by bhartmann
Joined on Thu, Mar 10 2011, Posts 170

I love VSL.  If there is a complaint, it is that it is confusing which products to buy.  Ensemble, Vienna Suite, MIR...I honestly don't know what those are or when to use which one.

I have Vienna Instruments Pro and Ensemble.  I have no idea when to use Ensemble, or why I would need the Pro version.  No idea what Vienna Suite and MIR are.  Not a criticism: just a comment that a very clear description would help.

There is a video for the Pro Version of Ensemble, but a chart with when to use which product and why would be helpful.

Thanks.

The Mighty Konrad
Posted on Mon, May 06 2013 17:18
by Conquer
Joined on Thu, Sep 28 2006, Posts 812


Symfoniq wrote:
Would I be better off purchasing Orchestral Strings and layering it with Dimension Strings when I want a bigger sound?

You'll get a *denser* sound, but it won't have the same lushness as Appassionata Strings - there's something about 20 violinists (etc.) playing at the same time in the same room that you can't duplicate via layering.



Symfoniq wrote:
I'll be adding Vienna Suite to my list

Cool, it has some some nice reverbs!


bhartmann wrote:
Vienna Ensemble, Vienna Suite, MIR...I
honestly don't know what those are... I have Vienna Instruments Pro and Ensemble.  I have no idea when to
use Ensemble, or why I would need the Pro version.  No idea what Vienna Suite and MIR are.
 

OK, the Vienna Instruments Pro player has more facilities than the regular Vienna Instruments player - for example, it has eight sound slots, automatic voice assigment, time-stretching, etc. Vienna Ensemble is a mixing host which lets you assemble multiple Vienna instruments players, assign them to different MIDI channels, adjust their volume and pan settings, etc. The Pro version of Vienna Ensemble can host third-party instruments such as Kontakt, so you can use it to create multi-library templates.


Vienna Suite is a collection of effects plug-ins (incl. EQ, compressor, limiter, reverb, etc.) which you can apply to the instruments you're running inside Vienna Ensemble, or in your DAW. MIR is VSL's top-end convolution reverb which accurately simulates a bunch of different acoustic spaces (inc. famous concert halls) and lets you position instruments around a virtual stage. HTH!



Posted on Tue, May 07 2013 12:35
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 234

Much has been said already, so I just add a few thoughts:

1. As your starting budget is rather high, and "starting" to me implies that you eventually plan to extend your libraries later on, I would not advise you to buy the complete SE, but only the basic Volume 1, so you have all the standard instruments of the Orchestra. This is only 310EUR so you still have plenty of money left for further consideration. If you plan to use less frequently used instruments like basset horn, alto flute and so on, you might add volume 2. As you are planning to extend your library in the future, do not go for the vol1+2PLUS, as they give you some additional articulations, but never the flexibility of the extended versions of the bigger libraries.

2. The introductory offer for Dimension Strings is great, so go for it, but keep in mind, that you cannot use it as your only string lib at the beginning, as you only have the violins, maybe in june the cellos, but the release date for the violas and basses is unknown. The appassionata strings I (full) could be a nice addition.

3. The Vienna suite might be a very good collection, but it still is just a collection of producing tools, all of which can be found in any DAW such as cubase. You have to learn, how to set up a virtual orchestra with digital reverb plug-ins, EQs and so on, you can learn this with the Cubase effects as well. If in the end there is monay left, I would rather buy MIR, cause this is unique technology.

4. Maybe you still have some money left for one or two collections like Brass I or Woodwinds I, consider what you need more, maybe you can get the extended version of your preferred section

5. If you are in favour of one specific instrument, there is still the opportunity to buy its full version as a single instrument.

Posted on Tue, May 07 2013 15:36
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

Symfoniq, FWIW, given my own compositional preferences, I chose Orchestra Strings over AP Strings (also have Solo I and Chamber I).  The Orchestra Strings was VSL's first ensemble strings library and is set up differently from all their other string modules.  Rather than libraries I and II being divided into normal and sordino, orchestra strings is divided into violins/violas, and cellos/basses.  You may have noticed that, but in the past some have missed that key difference - you will need both Orchestra Strings I and II.  The sordinos in OS are a bit more limited than in some of the newer libraries, but certainly provide enough.  As for AP Strings, I find the lack of articulations in the bass section to be particularly problematic (some others do not find that to be an issue).

Especialy for smaller ensembles, the Chamber Strings are also very good, and the Solo Strings are excellent.  For those who prefer writing for smaller ensembles, sometimes Chamber Strings have ended up being the first full strings library purchased.  Before AP Strings existed, one common technique was to layer OS, CS and SS.  Of course, with Dimension Strings, new realms of possibilities have emerged (I don't currently own DS).

IMO, what cannot be overemphasized is the importance of purchasing libraries that mesh with the style(s) you intend to write.

Posted on Tue, May 07 2013 21:55
by mschmitt
Joined on Mon, Jan 01 2007, Posts 140

Hi Symfoniq.

Could you tell us the specs of the computer or computers you have? This will help out in helping you select the right libraries. SE takes very little horsepower compared to the full libraries, with the trade off of a lot less samples and articulations.

If you want to do orchestral music, and have the computing power to run it, I'd go with the Cube and VS. I think you'll soon outgrow the SE, and the VS comes with presets for each instrument which makes it very easy to get a great "professional" sound.

Full Cube and lots of other stuff
Posted on Tue, May 07 2013 23:42
by Symfoniq
Joined on Sat, May 04 2013, Posts 45
MassMover wrote:

As you are planning to extend your library in the future, do not go for the vol1+2PLUS, as they give you some additional articulations, but never the flexibility of the extended versions of the bigger libraries.

I just looked at the Special Edition articulations again, and what you said makes a lot of sense. Thanks for saving me some money.

MassMover wrote:

5. If you are in favour of one specific instrument, there is still the opportunity to buy its full version as a single instrument.

I'm leaning toward taking this approach instead of buying the full Brass and Woodwinds libraries. Are there any downsides to buying download instruments instead of purchasing the full libraries?

Thank you, noldar12, for your insight on the various VSL string options.

mschmitt, thanks for considering the hardware angle. Based on the VSL boxes I see other people running, I should be in very good shape.

Now another question of my own: In another post in this thread, Mr. Peter Alexander recommends Dimension Brass. I'm interested in this library, but have noticed that I can't find many reviews or opinions expressed. Dimension Brass seems to be something of an enigma. I understand that this library can do things that others can't due to the method of recording, but how does it hold up next to current favorites like CineBrass and Hollywood Brass, or other VSL libraries like Brass I and Epic Horns?

Posted on Wed, May 08 2013 01:38
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1720
Symfoniq wrote:
Now another question of my own: In another post in this thread, Mr. Peter Alexander recommends Dimension Brass. I'm interested in this library, but have noticed that I can't find many reviews or opinions expressed. Dimension Brass seems to be something of an enigma. I understand that this library can do things that others can't due to the method of recording, but how does it hold up next to current favorites like CineBrass and Hollywood Brass, or other VSL libraries like Brass I and Epic Horns?

Hi again

Remember my advice: Collect some experience with most of the libraies coming with SE. Also learn to use the samples and to mix them so that you get a real orchestra.

Once more: Learn to fly the Cessna before you fly an A380 (as I mentioned above).

After some days or weeks you will know whether you need brass instruments for playing divisi (dimension brass) or not.

It's never to late to buy more (full) libraries or in other words to spend your money..

Keep in mind that dimension strings and dimension brass are sample libraies which are even more complicated to get out the most.

So I highly recommend to learn the producing of music (and I mean music not cold additions of samples) with some standard libraries first.

As you can see the thread is staedily growing. Fact is that all of the users here will recommmend their favourite libraries. This brings you not really to your own decisions, because all of the libraries here at VSL are good! So...

A further simple (Cessna-) approach:

Buy the Chamber Strings (full, they are useful in any case) and try to reach a famous mockup (Eine kleine Nachtmusik for example) as close to the real sound as possible together with the suite effects.

This will show you all the details: Does my technique the job, such as the Audio-Interface, the Monitors, the Screens, the PC/MAC, RAMs, Keyboard, Effects, DAW or the Score-program,...).

and also: Will I really invest the amount of time to produce music with samples in the future (1min. of music = 1 day of work is a good relation).

Do I need some training or education before I'm able to... (Midi, Audio-Mixing, Mastering, DAW etc.)

After that you will have another access to all the matters in connection with the theme, I'm sure.

Lots of questions will be answered. Lots of new questions will appear...?

All the best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, May 08 2013 08:27
by Peter Alexander
Joined on Wed, Aug 21 2002, Virginia, Posts 642
Quote:

A couple of posters mentioned Appassionata Strings and "big sound."
While I like the thick "Hollywood" sound, I'm also a trained classical
musician, and sometimes I like my strings a bit more restrained. Would I
be better off purchasing Orchestral Strings and layering it with
Dimension Strings when I want a bigger sound? It looks like Orchestral
Strings has a lot more articulations (flexibility) than Appassionata Strings for about the same price.

Don't get caught up in the Hollywood thing. Seriously. The Appassionatas are the most Berlin Phil sounding string library I've ever heard. It's an absolute work horse regardless of genre.

Peter L. Alexander
Author, Professional Orchestration Series
www.soniccontrol.tv
www.alexanderpublishing.com
Posted on Wed, May 08 2013 12:05
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 234

Symfoniq wrote:
Are there any downsides to buying download instruments instead of purchasing the full libraries?

There are no downsides regarding the instruments themselves, if you buy the Full library of a single instrument. The samples are exactly the same as in the Collection. Though, if you only buy the standard lib of a single instrument, it will be not only limited in its number of articulations, but also those patches are reduced in some ways. You still can upgrade them by buying the extended portion later without any loss of money.

You should, though, consider another aspect, that has not been mentioned yet: You need the Vienna Key (a hardware dongle) to run any VSL product. If you loose this key by accident or by theft, then VSL will assume that you gave it to sombody else and will not replace your licences. If the key gets broken after its 2y warranty period, you will get another one, but you have to pay a fee of 30EUR plus 20EUR PER LIICENCE. So, if you have WW1 that would be 2 licences to replace (1std, 1 ext.), if you build up your wood wind choir from single instruments that would be at least 4 licences (fl,ob,cl,bs)

Discussions regarding this issue have come up periodically, you can search the forum for "vienna key". 

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