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Please Fix - Playback Problem
Last post Fri, Jan 30 2015 by andi, 42 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Jun 27 2014 03:03
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

Hey VSL peeps!

In VI Pro, various versions and counting... when you play a staccato note, then a legato note... you hear the legato transition as if both were legato. It drives me mad! I just haven't bothered to report it until now.

If you need more info, let me know. But as it's been around a while, my guess is that you'll be able to replicate it fairly easily.

Again, thanks for all you guys do. Great software, great samples, great people!

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Fri, Jun 27 2014 07:45
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

That depends on two things:


  1. How close the stacc note off to the legato note on is
  2. What you have set the legato threshold to be (I can't remember what the new name for this is

Solutions:


  1. Use the sustain pedal to hold the stacc to it's full length, but play it short
  2. Set the legato threshold to a lower value.

DG


Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Fri, Jun 27 2014 13:06
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

DG,

I like the threshold's default value and don't want to change it for the legato patch. What I want is that when switching from one patch to another, it plays correctly.

I also use the FULL length of a note value, because I am writing for a real orchestra to perform this later on. I need a good mock-up and this is getting notated.

Seriously man, other people have different workflows than yourself. Wink But thanks for replying. I honestly do appreciate the effort. If there are sollutions I am not aware of on this point, I'm open to them. Personally, I consider this more of a bug than a feature.

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Fri, Jun 27 2014 13:15
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
iscorefilm wrote:

I like the threshold's default value and don't want to change it for the legato patch. What I want is that when switching from one patch to another, it plays correctly.

It does play correctly. It's just that you don't like the way the software works.

iscorefilm wrote:

I also use the FULL length of a note value, because I am writing for a real orchestra to perform this later on. I need a good mock-up and this is getting notated.

Fair enough. Use a different patch for the new start note then.

iscorefilm wrote:

Seriously man, other people have different workflows than yourself. Wink But thanks for replying. I honestly do appreciate the effort. If there are sollutions I am not aware of on this point, I'm open to them. Personally, I consider this more of a bug than a feature.

It has nothing to do with workflow. It has to do with the way the
software is designed to work. Therefore, if it is working as designed,
it is not a bug. FWIW I often want that transition sound for a legato
following a staccato, so if the player was changed to suit you, I would want the original specification kept as well.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Fri, Jun 27 2014 16:34
by mohurwitzmusic
Joined on Tue, Sep 07 2010, Posts 297

Switch to sustain instead.

www.midikinetics.com
Lemur touch controllers for composers and music producers.
Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 02:42
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

I am switching from staccato TO 8th notes playing a legato phrase. Sustain will not work. End of story. The library is playing what is effectively a glitch.

I forgot why I stopped commenting on the VSL forumns... because everyone thinks there is no room for improvement. If it isn't working as it should... then it will have an adverse affect. A staccato note simply SHOULD NOT have a transition to a legato note... PERIOD.

Is this really that hard to understand? Am I being unreasonable?

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 07:46
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
iscorefilm wrote:

I am switching from staccato TO 8th notes playing a legato phrase. Sustain will not work. End of story. The library is playing what is effectively a glitch.

I forgot why I stopped commenting on the VSL forumns... because everyone thinks there is no room for improvement. If it isn't working as it should... then it will have an adverse affect. A staccato note simply SHOULD NOT have a transition to a legato note... PERIOD.

Is this really that hard to understand? Am I being unreasonable?

-Sean


Yes you are being unreasonable, I'm afraid. You are stating your view as if
it was the only view. You've already delivered a virtual slapping to me,
accusing me of expecting you to share my workflow, yet you expect the rest of us to share your workflow.

I totally understood what you want, but have
offered two solutions to it already, which you don't want to use, because it
interferes with the way that you like to work. Fine. No problem with that.
However, you are actually asking for a feature request, and should the software
be changed to work the way you want it to, it would impact on the way it works
for the rest of us, so of course we have an opinion.
What you want is for the first note of a legato patch automatically to
use a start note in every situation. Nothing wrong with that for your music, but
for me I would find it limiting, as I often use a staccato, or other patch, as a
start note for a phrase, and using your system I would lose the transition to
the 2nd note of the phrase. So there would need to be a way of telling the
software whether or not to use start notes on a case by case basis. I think that's a good idea, but it is a feature request, not a bug fix.

In the
spirit of compromise, perhaps you'd be good enough to explain the point you
mentioned about going from sequencer to notation program, so that I might be
able to give you some hint on a way to make that work better for you. I have
done this a lot, so might be able to help keep you happy, whilst using the VSL software in its current form.


DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 16:24
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

DG,

I'm sorry. I mean no hard feelings. However, every solution here assumes I either missed something or that there is a solution... yet those solutions are jimmy-rigged instead of a fix which would not conflict with any other variable to this problem.

Due to the nature of those variables, which are inevitable in the software world, and due to the playback of the software not working as it should... It is what I would call a "missing feature" instead of a request. In my world, that is a bug. I have tested software for bugs and am well versed in the difference between a feature and a bug. So I understand where you are coming from completely. I believe that companies miss the mark when they treat 'missing features' as feature requests and not bugs... because user experience is far more important than most companies give weight. I also believe that those that do are far more successful than those that don't. In any case, the problem is recognized and I appreciate your respectul reply.

Smile

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 17:14
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5398

 This is not a problem, it is a great advantage and crucial for VI to be programmed this way.  It  is the same thing allows you to use a starting note that is other than the legato articulations - for example, a sforzando that transitions to a legato, or even a dynamic that crescendos then transitions at the right legato velocity layer.  This is one of the most common occurences in programming and is dealt with simply by inserting after the staccato a sustain note, or a detache/portato, then the legato.   That is exactly the same as if you started with legato after the staccato, since thoe legato articulations actually ARE sustains before the transition.  If it is a fast phrase you need a somewaht faster attack note than sustain, but it will function exactly the same as  the legato only.

Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 18:57
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

Here's a thought...

Maybe if I notate some staccato notes then a legato passage immediately following it... it could play it like a real human being would. Wink

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 19:35
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5398

 It is like a real human being would.  All the legato articulations start with sustains, in fact, most or all of them actually the same samples as the sustain articulations.  So placing one at the start of a legato phrase simply shuts off the transition to the first note from the previous staccato notes.

Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 19:54
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

"It is like a real human being would" ...On the condition of which articulation you are playing, you are correct. However, I actually like to staccatos and legatos right after each other. Pretty wild!

I just switched from staccato to legato in a Kontakt-based library I own. It played it right! It's a miracle! Wink lol

VSL is great. I love the library. I respect the team. I'm simply offering a suggestion for an improvement which can be made. Maybe you don't want it. I do. It's pretty simple. Let's leave it at that.

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 19:56
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

For the record, I don't want anyone to read that post and think I prefer Kontakt. It's a decent tool and all. But VI-Pro is hands-down the best sampler out there. I simply want a tweak added. Big Smile

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 20:25
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

It should also be mentioned that at the same cross-fade settings as legato, the patch blares heavily on a horn. So I now not only have to jimmy rig the articulation choice to get it to work... but I have to make further adjustments to the cross fade, otherwise it sounds pretty awful. Yet more work I have to do which is all unnecessary if I use my other libraries.

My goal is to have all my libraries working together. I can copy a part from one instrument to another if needed. As it stands, every library works just fine... except for VSL. Like I said, I love VSL... so I'm not trying to paint a bad picture here. I'm simply illustrating that there are workflows in which this creates a problem. If you really want me to put an MP3 up here with a screenshot I'd be happy to. But again, does it take that much effort just to have something heard and changed? If that's the case, I'm not the one painting a bad picture on this forumn at all. Quite the contrary.

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Sat, Jun 28 2014 21:52
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5398
iscorefilm wrote:
However, I actually like to staccatos and legatos right after each other. Pretty wild!

They ARE right after each other.  In fact, there is no way to get them any closer.  Legato articulations consist of three elements - a start note, a transition and a target note.   So you could never go directly from staccato to legato without hitting a start note EXCEPT in the situation which caused you a problem - having a transition from a staccato to a legato target note.  The only way to use the technology of these dissected transitions is to start with a different sample of a sustain or any note long enough to sustain (including portato or detache) to the  transition sample.  So you can switch easily instantly from staccato to legato even in extremely fast passages.

Posted on Sun, Jun 29 2014 00:51
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5398

So, the point is - this is not a playback problem but a PLAYBACK FEATURE.  If you know how to use it.  Cool

Posted on Sun, Jun 29 2014 03:45
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

Sure, a feature every other library I own has. Hopefully VSL will follow suit. Geeked

Although ironically, I also wish every other library I own was in VI Pro. I'm sure we can at least agree on that! lol

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Sun, Jun 29 2014 11:04
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
iscorefilm wrote:

Sure, a feature every other library I own has. Hopefully VSL will follow suit. Geeked

I don't think that anyone disagrees that being able to
force a start note could be very useful, but it should be an extra feature, not a change.

FWIW in the real world it is very rare that a
legato start note (in VSL terminology) would be used after a spiccato; the bow would more
often come from above rather than on the string, which is a whole different articulation, so even in your scenario it is not really accurate when compared with real life.

I still think that you should just change the legato threshold and learn to play better.  Wink

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Jun 29 2014 14:40
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

DG.

1) I can take out any instrument, play staccato, then legato and it would be a very natural performance. And fyi, French Horns can't play spiccato. Going from a staccato note to legato makes PERFECT sense and is ABSOLUTELY common on a WIDE variety of instruments.

2) The transition note simply shouldn't be played if it's not something a performer WOULD EVER do. From staccato to legato... they wouldn't.

I'm honestly sick of this discussion. The only reason I keep defending my point isn't to be argumentative, but because I don't want VSL to read the commentary and not act on this because of what you guys are saying. Disagreements are a waste of time. If you will not contribute a USEFUL way to improve the software in relation to the topic I have introduced, then please respect my request and keep the disagreement to yourself. I welcome contributing ideas which build or establish a new function which helps. I don't welcome people cutting down or disagreeing with an idea that has application. And furthermore, if you can't see the application... then it doesn't hurt you to leave it alone. Where as it DOES hurt me to disagree. This feature could help me. PLEASE leave it alone.

Dear VSL,


You have my "feature request"/bug/whatever... please act on it. My faith in VSL practically died in this forum, but I've reminded myself I haven't been talking to VSL staff this entire time. I have a glimmer of hope that someone can respect this enough to do it and not argue about something a musician would never do. Please make this change. My Kontakt instruments are very capable of this. I simply want VSL to follow suit so I don't have to deal with the playback or this discussion ever again.


Please do something.

With respect, and a bit of hope...

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Sun, Jun 29 2014 15:10
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Sean, my Violin example was just to show that what you want isn't always applicable to the real world.

You
seem think that because people disagree, they should keep their mouths
shut. History will prove you wrong on that time and time again. In any
case, you started off with the opinion that the current behaviour was
wrong and a bug., At least you now seem to accept that it isn't wrong; it's just not what you want it to be. That is progress. Maybe you should now change the title of this thread and then you won't get so much disagreement

As I said
before, there is nothing wrong with the way you want to work. It's just
that if your idea becomes the only possible behaviour, there would be no
workaround, whereas currently there are at least two workarounds. It's just that they don't suit you.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
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