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VE Pro audio muting when switching tracks in Cubase Pro 8
Last post Wed, Jul 05 2017 by esencia, 112 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Sep 03 2015 20:46
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 279

I am being optimistic hopefully....not sure what they mean.  We need it explained.

Posted on Fri, Sep 04 2015 14:14
by MS
Joined on Wed, Feb 19 2003, Vienna, Austria, Posts 1760

Currently there is no other way to mitigate the audio muting, than to disable ASIO Guard (2) for the VEPro plugin. With the help of the new interface introduced in the VST3 SDK, I have set VEPro to automatically disallow going into ASIO Guard mode in the upcoming version.

 

As I have described earlier, the cause for the mutes is the Cubendo audio engine reconfiguring itself as soon as the buffer size (and with it, the latency) of the plugin changes. Other hosts (such as Logic) get around this problem by queuing an engine/PDC reconfiguration until the next stop/start cycle.

 

The only possibility I see to handle AG2 from our side right now, would be to make the plugin operate completely asynchronously, but this would also mean we would have to adapt the overall latency to be higher than currently, which we are reluctant to do.

 

I am also wondering if it really is the case that plugins running without AG2 are performing worse in C8 than they were without AG in C7? Did any of you guys do any tests on this?

 

Thanks,

--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH
Posted on Fri, Sep 04 2015 14:58
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 279

Yes....I have done significant testing.  For instance I have a machine that runs nothing but EW PLAY running Hollywood Strings and Brass.  Play is very demanding and without playing a single note my very powerful I7 QUAD core sits at 78%....before I play a single note.  My Cubase buffer runs at 128 samples.  With ASIO GUARD 2 on its high setting that 78% drops to just 16%.  At medium setting it drops to about 23%.  These results are similar across all 5 of my slave machines.  This an absolute ground breaking difference.  

There must be some sort of solutiion to resolve this.  Is it possible to have a preference to run in asynchronous mode?

 

We desparately need this feature to work.

 

-Danny

 

Originally Posted by: MS Go to Quoted Post

Currently there is no other way to mitigate the audio muting, than to disable ASIO Guard (2) for the VEPro plugin. With the help of the new interface introduced in the VST3 SDK, I have set VEPro to automatically disallow going into ASIO Guard mode in the upcoming version.

 

As I have described earlier, the cause for the mutes is the Cubendo audio engine reconfiguring itself as soon as the buffer size (and with it, the latency) of the plugin changes. Other hosts (such as Logic) get around this problem by queuing an engine/PDC reconfiguration until the next stop/start cycle.

 

The only possibility I see to handle AG2 from our side right now, would be to make the plugin operate completely asynchronously, but this would also mean we would have to adapt the overall latency to be higher than currently, which we are reluctant to do.

 

I am also wondering if it really is the case that plugins running without AG2 are performing worse in C8 than they were without AG in C7? Did any of you guys do any tests on this?

 

Thanks,

Posted on Fri, Sep 04 2015 15:09
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609

Originally Posted by: MS Go to Quoted Post

I am also wondering if it really is the case that plugins running without AG2 are performing worse in C8 than they were without AG in C7? Did any of you guys do any tests on this?

Unless I've misunderstood you, this isn't really the comparison that we should be making: in Nuendo 6.5 and Cubase 7 we don't have the audio dropout issues when changing tracks, which means ASIO Guard can be left ON.   The audio muting issue is totally new to Cubase 8 / Nuendo 7 (AFAIK) and as a result, we now have to turn ASIO Guard 2 OFF.

There's no question that CPU performance under N6.5/C7 with ASIO Guard on is significantly better than in N7/C8 with it turned off for VE Pro.

Having tried (and struggled) to work with Nuendo 7 for a few weeks, I have now reverted back to Nuendo 6.5, because my template (which is largely hosted in VE Pro)  is just not stable with AG2 turned off.

Jules

System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
OS 10.7.4
Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
ProTools HDX, 11.3
Digidesign 192 Interfaces x6

System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DT3-LN4F
RAM: 96GB ECC RAM in SUPERO 4GB modules (ECC-R DR340LER13)
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (64 bit)
Audio Hardware: RME HDSPe AIO PCIe
Hard Drives: 2x1.5TG Seagate ES (SATA)
1x2TB Seagate ES (SATA)
1x1.5TB Seagate ES (SAS)
MIDI: Midi Over Lan CP 3
Output Format: Stereo
Sample Rate: 44.1KHz clocked from external wordclock master
Graphics: Gainward 9500GT 512MB PCIe


Posted on Fri, Sep 04 2015 15:28
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 279

Sorry I misread your post....I did not use ASIO GUARD in C7 because Steinberg said it did not support instruments with multi outputs in C7.  My previous post is just showing the obvious need for you to support ASIO GUARD 2 in C8.

 

-Danny

Posted on Fri, Sep 04 2015 21:00
by paaltio
Joined on Sat, Jan 20 2007, Helsinki, Finland, Posts 20
Originally Posted by: MS Go to Quoted Post
I am also wondering if it really is the case that plugins running without AG2 are performing worse in C8 than they were without AG in C7? Did any of you guys do any tests on this?


Yes this performance regression has been a constant in my tests, and a similar difference was already present in C6 -> C7.

Would it be possible to have a "set the number of buffers for all VE Pro plugins" button like we have for decouple all? Would make it a little easier to at least manage our own extra buffers in large sessions if we can't use AG.

Thanks,
Panu Aaltio
Posted on Sat, Sep 05 2015 11:52
by westwoodi
Joined on Tue, Feb 28 2006, UK, Posts 22

Post deleted and a new thread started. I decided it was most likely a different issue to the one being discussed in this thread

Posted on Tue, Sep 08 2015 09:20
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609

Originally Posted by: paaltio Go to Quoted Post

Yes this performance regression has been a constant in my tests, and a similar difference was already present in C6 -> C7.

Would it be possible to have a "set the number of buffers for all VE Pro plugins" button like we have for decouple all? Would make it a little easier to at least manage our own extra buffers in large sessions if we can't use AG.

Thanks,
Panu Aaltio

Hi Martin

I would also be interested to know what the latency implications are for having the VE Pro plugin run asynchronously.  As things stand it seems that the new VST SDK and proposed VE Pro implimentation does not resolve the situation in any way - we are still left with either audio dropouts (if AG2 is enabled) or increased CPU load (if it's not). 

I would really like to kow how bad the additional latency would need to be, in order to run VE Pro with AG2 enabled but also accomodating Cubendo's need to rebuffer.  One way or another we're going to need to find a workaround, if not a solution, because remaining on legacy versions of Steinberg software is only going to be possible for so long.

Would some kind of external MIDI workaround resolve the situation, such that instead of selecting the VE Pro plugin when you select a track in Cubendo, you're actually selecting a virtual MIDI port, which is then in turn routed to a VE Pro server instance?  Would this mean that Cubendo does not need to reset it's audio engine every time a track is selected?   Just trying to come up with ideas ...

Thanks for any more info.

Jules

System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
OS 10.7.4
Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
ProTools HDX, 11.3
Digidesign 192 Interfaces x6

System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DT3-LN4F
RAM: 96GB ECC RAM in SUPERO 4GB modules (ECC-R DR340LER13)
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (64 bit)
Audio Hardware: RME HDSPe AIO PCIe
Hard Drives: 2x1.5TG Seagate ES (SATA)
1x2TB Seagate ES (SATA)
1x1.5TB Seagate ES (SAS)
MIDI: Midi Over Lan CP 3
Output Format: Stereo
Sample Rate: 44.1KHz clocked from external wordclock master
Graphics: Gainward 9500GT 512MB PCIe


Posted on Tue, Sep 08 2015 21:35
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 279

We definitely need a solution.  It seems the midi idea is not going to work as the VE PRO 5  plug would be working in a very large buffer ....that is the benefit of ASIO GUARD 2.  The medium setting in Cubase is 1024.  Multiply that by the number of VE PRO buffers and you can see that will not work.

 

-Danny

Originally Posted by: Trailerman Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: paaltio Go to Quoted Post

Yes this performance regression has been a constant in my tests, and a similar difference was already present in C6 -> C7.

Would it be possible to have a "set the number of buffers for all VE Pro plugins" button like we have for decouple all? Would make it a little easier to at least manage our own extra buffers in large sessions if we can't use AG.

Thanks,
Panu Aaltio

Hi Martin

I would also be interested to know what the latency implications are for having the VE Pro plugin run asynchronously.  As things stand it seems that the new VST SDK and proposed VE Pro implimentation does not resolve the situation in any way - we are still left with either audio dropouts (if AG2 is enabled) or increased CPU load (if it's not). 

I would really like to kow how bad the additional latency would need to be, in order to run VE Pro with AG2 enabled but also accomodating Cubendo's need to rebuffer.  One way or another we're going to need to find a workaround, if not a solution, because remaining on legacy versions of Steinberg software is only going to be possible for so long.

Would some kind of external MIDI workaround resolve the situation, such that instead of selecting the VE Pro plugin when you select a track in Cubendo, you're actually selecting a virtual MIDI port, which is then in turn routed to a VE Pro server instance?  Would this mean that Cubendo does not need to reset it's audio engine every time a track is selected?   Just trying to come up with ideas ...

Thanks for any more info.

Jules

Posted on Thu, Sep 17 2015 21:16
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 279

So would it be possible to have a preference that could switch the plugin to asynchronous mode?  If it is a bit higher in latency then so be it but please give us the option as the benefits of ASIO GUARD 2 are HUGE especially on the slave machines.

 

-Danny

Posted on Thu, Sep 17 2015 21:45
by 10us
Joined on Tue, Jan 01 2013, Posts 42
I don't have the dropout during lane switching anymore. AG2 enabled, not sure if I have done this also in the plugin manager. Only other thing I changed was using rack instruments instead of instrument tracks. I do experience increasing latency during the build of a project. I do not mind, I also use high latency (1024) on my asio drivers to max out vst performance.

Is the increasing latency an effect of disabeling AG in the plugin manager?
|i7-6800K|Win10 pro x64|Cubase Pro 9.5.40|Vienna Ensemble Pro 6|RME Fireface UC|UAD2 Octo|
Posted on Thu, Sep 17 2015 22:01
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 279

Originally Posted by: 10us Go to Quoted Post
I don't have the dropout during lane switching anymore. AG2 enabled, not sure if I have done this also in the plugin manager. Only other thing I changed was using rack instruments instead of instrument tracks. I do experience increasing latency during the build of a project. I do not mind, I also use high latency (1024) on my asio drivers to max out vst performance. Is the increasing latency an effect of disabeling AG in the plugin manager?

 

ASIO GUARD 2 set to MEDIUM is the same thing as 1024 buffer.  From my understanding of how it works .....if you are at 1024 buffer and ASIO GUARD 2 is set to MEDIUM then ASIO GAURD 2 is doing nothing additional for you and that is why there is no delay in switching tracks as it has no effect in your situation.  The same would be true if someone used a 512 buffer and  the "SMALL"setting in ASIO GUARD 2 as that defaults to 512.

 

If you dropped your buffer to say 512 and tried it with ASIO GUARD 2 on MEDIUM you would indeed have the delay in switching tracks.

 

-Danny

Posted on Sat, Sep 19 2015 10:21
by 10us
Joined on Tue, Jan 01 2013, Posts 42

Originally Posted by: dlpmusic Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: 10us Go to Quoted Post
I don't have the dropout during lane switching anymore. AG2 enabled, not sure if I have done this also in the plugin manager. Only other thing I changed was using rack instruments instead of instrument tracks. I do experience increasing latency during the build of a project. I do not mind, I also use high latency (1024) on my asio drivers to max out vst performance. Is the increasing latency an effect of disabeling AG in the plugin manager?

 

ASIO GUARD 2 set to MEDIUM is the same thing as 1024 buffer.  From my understanding of how it works .....if you are at 1024 buffer and ASIO GUARD 2 is set to MEDIUM then ASIO GAURD 2 is doing nothing additional for you and that is why there is no delay in switching tracks as it has no effect in your situation.  The same would be true if someone used a 512 buffer and  the "SMALL"setting in ASIO GUARD 2 as that defaults to 512.

 

If you dropped your buffer to say 512 and tried it with ASIO GUARD 2 on MEDIUM you would indeed have the delay in switching tracks.

 

-Danny

 

So I checked:

  • CB8pro AG2 in preferences: High
  • VEP VST3 in CB8 plugin manager: Active (enabled)
  • ASIO driver buffer: 1024 samples (21.3ms)

So is it normal that 1) I don't have delay switching tracks and 2) does AG2 improves my ASIO performance in Cubase and/or VEP in your opinon?

Regards,

Martijn

|i7-6800K|Win10 pro x64|Cubase Pro 9.5.40|Vienna Ensemble Pro 6|RME Fireface UC|UAD2 Octo|
Posted on Mon, Sep 21 2015 07:05
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609

Hi Martijn

What version of Cubase 8 (there's an update just out or due out soon I think)?  It's possible there's been a fix on Steinberg's side, as I know they've fixed some MIDI issues.

Have you got Asio Guard manually disabled for the VE Pro plugin individually perhaps (Devices->Plugin Manager->VST Instruments->Vienna Ensemble Pro->show info and check if ASIO GUARD button shows active or not)?

Can you perhaps test with a buffer size of 512 samples and see if you still get no audio dropouts?

Fingers crossed there's been an unreported fix somewhere down the line, but I suspect it's something else.

Thanks for your help.

Jules

System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
OS 10.7.4
Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
ProTools HDX, 11.3
Digidesign 192 Interfaces x6

System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DT3-LN4F
RAM: 96GB ECC RAM in SUPERO 4GB modules (ECC-R DR340LER13)
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (64 bit)
Audio Hardware: RME HDSPe AIO PCIe
Hard Drives: 2x1.5TG Seagate ES (SATA)
1x2TB Seagate ES (SATA)
1x1.5TB Seagate ES (SAS)
MIDI: Midi Over Lan CP 3
Output Format: Stereo
Sample Rate: 44.1KHz clocked from external wordclock master
Graphics: Gainward 9500GT 512MB PCIe


Posted on Mon, Sep 21 2015 07:24
by 10us
Joined on Tue, Jan 01 2013, Posts 42

It worked for me in C8.0.20 and after upgrading to 8.0.30 it's still working. I have checked the plugin status in the plugin manager: It's set to active. What I did found out is that I used the VST2 version of the Vienna plugin. I changed all to VST3 version of the plugin last nigth.

I will check if things changed with VST3 plugin and test what lowering the ASIO buffers of the audio driver will do.

Regards,

 

Martijn

|i7-6800K|Win10 pro x64|Cubase Pro 9.5.40|Vienna Ensemble Pro 6|RME Fireface UC|UAD2 Octo|
Posted on Thu, Sep 24 2015 18:39
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 279

Again....it is far from fixed.

You are running a buffer of 1024 which is the same result as ASIO GUARD 2 set to MEDIUM.  ASIO GUARD 2 will do nothing good or bad for you if you have it set to MEDIUM and you run a buffer of 1024.  The buffer setting and ASIO GUARD 2 have to be at different settings to cause the audio drop outs when switching tracks.  Your buffer is not different so you have no issue.  For the majority of us that want to run smaller buffers like 128 it is a HUGE issue that Vienna needs to address by at least giving us preference options to run asynchronous.

Best,

Danny

Originally Posted by: 10us Go to Quoted Post

It worked for me in C8.0.20 and after upgrading to 8.0.30 it's still working. I have checked the plugin status in the plugin manager: It's set to active. What I did found out is that I used the VST2 version of the Vienna plugin. I changed all to VST3 version of the plugin last nigth.

I will check if things changed with VST3 plugin and test what lowering the ASIO buffers of the audio driver will do.

Regards,

 

Martijn

Posted on Thu, Sep 24 2015 19:20
by 10us
Joined on Tue, Jan 01 2013, Posts 42
Thanks for the clarification. Seems that I need to read more about AG2. Like to know why the buffer needs to be different.

If these problems are solved, would their be a noticable performance increase? specificly for insert amounts?

Gr.

Martijn
|i7-6800K|Win10 pro x64|Cubase Pro 9.5.40|Vienna Ensemble Pro 6|RME Fireface UC|UAD2 Octo|
Posted on Fri, Sep 25 2015 21:51
by dlpmusic
Joined on Sun, Jan 19 2003, Posts 279

Martin,

 

Can you explain to us what the downside is of having a "preference" to turn asynchronous mode on.  I know you said latency would increase.  Can you elaborate on what the increase in latency would be and by how much?

 

Thanks,
Danny

Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2015 10:18
by Trailerman
Joined on Wed, Jun 14 2006, Manchester, UK, Posts 609
It would certainly be helpful to have a little more feedback from the developers on this issue. I realise this situation may be technically challenging, but one way or another I can't help feeling some kind of accommodation is going to need to be found.

Jules
System 1:

Windows 7 64bit
16 core, 3.4GHz E5-2687W, 128GB Ram,
Nuendo 6.5 / Nuendo 7.020 / Cubase 7.5 / Cubase Pro 8
Motu 2408 Mk III x 3

System 2:

Mac Pro Mid 2010
12 core, 3GHz, 32GB Ram,
OS 10.7.4
Seagate ES and Intel Solid State Drives
ProTools HDX, 11.3
Digidesign 192 Interfaces x6

System 3:

CPU: 2xIntel W5580 Xeon Nehalem S1366
Motherboard: Supermicro X8DT3-LN4F
RAM: 96GB ECC RAM in SUPERO 4GB modules (ECC-R DR340LER13)
OS: Windows 7 Ultimate (64 bit)
Audio Hardware: RME HDSPe AIO PCIe
Hard Drives: 2x1.5TG Seagate ES (SATA)
1x2TB Seagate ES (SATA)
1x1.5TB Seagate ES (SAS)
MIDI: Midi Over Lan CP 3
Output Format: Stereo
Sample Rate: 44.1KHz clocked from external wordclock master
Graphics: Gainward 9500GT 512MB PCIe


Posted on Sat, Sep 26 2015 13:29
by 10us
Joined on Tue, Jan 01 2013, Posts 42

Originally Posted by: dlpmusic Go to Quoted Post

Martin,

 

Can you explain to us what the downside is of having a "preference" to turn asynchronous mode on.  I know you said latency would increase.  Can you elaborate on what the increase in latency would be and by how much?

 

Thanks,
Danny

Hi Danny,

I don't know what asynchronous mode on is. At the moment I haven't any downsides I know of. Because I knew about problems with dropouts midi tracks I was wondering why I didn't experience any.

The discussion gets more technical then I can Google. There seems to be not much low level documentation. For example: I realy don't understand how it's possible to pull channels in and out  AG? This should change the overall perceived latency? It seems that Cubase hosted VSTi's don't have this issues or am I wrong?

Would indeed be nice if developement could shine some l light on this matter. Can it be fexed?

Regards,

Martijn

|i7-6800K|Win10 pro x64|Cubase Pro 9.5.40|Vienna Ensemble Pro 6|RME Fireface UC|UAD2 Octo|
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