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Vienna Ensemble Pro with NI Komplete Kontrol?
Last post Thu, Dec 29 2016 by Janicek, 15 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Apr 09 2015 15:25
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

I am trying to find out what is and is not possible with the Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol hardware.

If I use Vienna Ensemble Pro to host some of my Kontakt instruments is there a way to still use Komplete Kontrol functions mainly the LightGuide? The ability to view keyswitches being one of the handiest options.

From what I understand for Komplete Kontrol to use its LightGuide functions the Kontakt instrument must be loaded inside a Komplete Kontrol plugin wrapper. However loading Kontakt via VEP in a DAW requires using the server plugin.

I doubt that I could load VEP server plugin inside the Komplete Kontrol plugin. Theoretically could you load the Komplete Kontrol software on the slave computer with Kontakt loaded inside that?

Has anyone got both VEP and Komplete Kontrol? Have you got it working together, or is it impossible?

Posted on Sat, Apr 18 2015 05:14
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1518

Originally Posted by: Janicek Go to Quoted Post

 could you load the Komplete Kontrol software on the slave computer with Kontakt loaded inside that?


Yeah, you can load KK in VE Pro, it's an instrument like anything else, and it will run Kontakt inside that.
I don't know anything about the hardware but as long as your connection to it is on the DAW side and you're focused on the track using it, there wouldn't tend to be an issue I guess. I mean I have used the Kore Controller with Kore hosting plugins in VE Pro. The thing you're not assured of having any joy with is the 'Kontrol' on the slave computer, it's not a sure thing that it will work.

MacBook Pro 2.6GHz 6-core i9
32GB 2400MHz DDR4
OSX 10.14.5
Posted on Sat, Apr 18 2015 20:04
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

Yeah I thought that too. However NI reckon the keyboard must be connected directly to the computer with Komplete Kontrol loaded, so that rules out using with any Kontakt instruments on a Slave.

Whether it would work on the DAW computer that is using VEP is another matter.

Not sure I want to spend a load of money to find out not!

Everythings always compromises...

Shame because having a visual indicator for the Keyswitches and other Keys would be really handy.

Posted on Thu, Apr 23 2015 10:29
by saaleha
Joined on Thu, Apr 23 2015, ASDASW, Posts 1

SO NICE POST DEAR





six sigma certification


saaleha saaleDSADha
Posted on Mon, Dec 14 2015 00:35
by David Bawiec
Joined on Fri, Aug 28 2015, Los Angeles, Posts 2

In October Native Instruments updated Komplete Kontrol to 1.5, which also opened up the world to third party developers to start implementing the updated NKS format with their instruments to support Light Guide and full controller assignment.

I got the new Komplete Kontrol S88 keyboard and I'm loving it. The Light Guide and all the controller assignments are great! So of course I got excited to incorporate Komplete Kontrol into my orchestral template in Logic and open up all the possible keyboard integrations. So I set out to do a test. :)

My orchestral template in Logic Pro X 10.2 has 148 tracks. It uses Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 Server (on the same machine) and has all of these tracks connect to 8 instances of Vienna Ensemble Pro which host a lot of Kontakt instruments. The total load time of this session is relatively short (40 seconds) as Logic just connects to VEP and only really has to focus on loading all the mixer plugins.

So I created a whole new session where instead of using VEP to host my entire orchestra I loaded all the instruments individually inside of Logic in individual instances of Komplete Kontrol. All with an identical mixing setup. Well, as expected, the load time on this session was drastically huge: 3 min 15 sec.

So.... yeah. Not great. I want to keep using Vienna Ensemble Pro, because it makes my workflow much faster. However, I also REALLY want to use all the Komplete Kontrol software/hardware integration functions. Unfortunately at this point in time, it's one or the other.

Do we know if VSL is planning on updating VEP to integrate with KK and let us get the best of both worlds?

Posted on Mon, Dec 14 2015 02:05
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2612

I have bought a Komplete Kontrol s88 too, it's a great keyboard (it's a pitty there only 8 knobs)

I have ask VSL if there will make there player compatible with KK, and the answer was that it was not planned.

I hope that VSL will make there player compatible with KK (do not hesitate to send a request to )

More user will ask for it more there is chance we will have it. It will be a problem for VSL is users start to use other librarys compatible with Kontakt

I have experimenting using Dimension Brass live, it's a hell to use keyswitches as the mapping will change with  the articulation, the last note of the instrument will change depending of the articulation.

I am complicating this using MainStage 3 with my band ;)

Maintsage load KK but when you select a track it does not refresh the knobs parameter and the light on the keyboard. I hope Apple is going to update Mainstage to do so

 

Thanks in advance VSL

Best Cyril

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Mon, Dec 14 2015 11:43
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

Well I took the plunge and got an S61. I did it with the intention of only using it with Keyswitch instruments outside of VEP and keeping my 1 track/1 articulation tracks via VEP.

However my only gripe is that I still have to move the register up/down to see many keswitches as 61 keys is still not enough to see them visible (I could not go 88 key as I have it in an under desk pull out and 88 would be way too wide for my setup).

So nice but not as practical as I had hoped, might have to settle for playing in an octave lower thwen transposing or doing keyswitches on a second pass!

As far as VEP integration not tried yet, but was hoping loading VEP inside KK then connecting to a server would work. But I suppose thats too much?

VSL need to work on this as their market might start to dry up a bit if you cannot use with KK. I think their market is already reducing as some Pro Composers are already ditching slave setups to 1 powerful Mac (I know guys like Christian Henson and John Powell are doing this as seen their studio setups on Spitfire Audio's Creative Cribs blog).

Posted on Tue, Sep 13 2016 23:32
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57
Okay some interesting news. So I was playing around with this again tonight, thinking if there was some other way. So I hooked up it again in Logic Pro X this way:
 
1. Opened up the VEP server application on my main DAW computer (Mac) basically connecting to VEP locally rather than on a slave computer for purposes of testing.
 
2. Added an instance of Komplete Kontrol inside the VEP server rack and within that a Komplete Kontrol instrument.
 
3. Saved this as a server project.
 
4. In Logic added a VEP Server plugin and connected to this project (as usual method).
 
Now as I observed previously, I can play the sounds of Komplete Kontrol from my DAW when connected via VEP, but the keyboard thinks its just a standard midi track so the Lightguide or Hardware Controls do not display Komplete Kontrol values. 
 
If I switch focus the the VEP server on the computer outside the DAW (either by clicking on the VEP software or using VEP to auto raise it) it comes alive and if I switch back into the DAW stays that way, but when I switch track to a non KK instance in Logic it switches into Midi Mode and will not go back when focus is switched back to the VEP/Komplete Kontrol track.
 
So I went back into the VEP server rack and out of curiosity clicked the keyboard symbol in the KK window and sure enough the keyboard sprang back into KK mode. I then remembered that there was a key routine on the hardware to do the same thing.
 
So back in Logic, I used the up/down arrows to select the non KK track to force the loss of KK display, then hit Shift and Instance keys on the KK keyboard (Shift is top left and Instance is near the Browse button). Guess what it works!
  So basically hosting Komplete Kontrol inside a VEP server instance WILL work, but to get focus you have to press Shift + Instance. It seems that Komplete Kontrol cannot update track focus when hosted inside VEP it just needs some help.
 
Now what I have not tested is whether this also works on a slave computer as I have not installed KK software on it as there was no point before. Also personally not sure I ever will as my slaves are maxed out as it is hosting Play and non KK Kontakt libraries. But I can see myself using this method on VIs using KK that are currently saved inside my DAW as loading them separately has its benefits switching projects/optimising CPU performance.
 
Just thought I would post this in case anyone else out there is using Komplete Kontrol and VEP and wanted to do the same.
Posted on Wed, Sep 14 2016 02:40
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2612

To make it short, you say when you press "shift + Instance" VI are complettly compatible with KK !

Parameters, light guide, keyswitches ....

Strange ! because VSL did not advertise to have modify VI and VE so it is compatible with KK

VSL have to modify VI and VE to send to KK the parameter's name, the key switches.......

 

It would be a great new !

Paul can you confirm ?

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Wed, Sep 14 2016 09:58
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

I think you may be misunderstanding me?

Vienna Instruments will not work with Komplete Kontrol, yes you can load any plugin within Komplete Kontrol software but Lightguide and the Controls are reserved for Kontakt, Maschine and Reactor instruments.

What I am talking about here is using Komplete (Kontakt) VIs within Komplete Kontrol which resides on a VEP server instance.

Posted on Wed, Sep 14 2016 12:10
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2612

Originally Posted by: Janicek Go to Quoted Post

the Controls are reserved for Kontakt, Maschine and Reactor instruments.

 

No It is also working with : (VSL please do not stay behind)

Confirmed partners using NKS technology





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MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Wed, Sep 14 2016 13:19
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

Yes correct, however most of those are Kontakt based libraries (but thats not the point).

What I meant was that my method confirms you can access NKS functions (if the instrument has them) on a Komplete Kontrol hosted instrument, which Native Instruments could not confirm.

My point was that you need to press Shift and Instance buttons on the hardware keyboard to wake up the device to make it display NKS controls and Lightguide.

It just seems that something about hosting it inside VEP stops the Track Focus updating properly automatically. In my DAW Logic a regular Komplete Kontrol instance inserted into a instrument track will properly switch into NKS mode when the track is selected, but not this way.

But at least it works, pity Komplete Kontrol forces you to use one instance per instrument, there is no way to make a multi, so a bit of a waste in resources and means in VEP you must have one instance per track.

Posted on Wed, Sep 14 2016 14:02
by Cyril Blanc
Joined on Thu, Dec 19 2002, Paris France, Posts 2612

Originally Posted by: Janicek Go to Quoted Post

Yes correct, however most of those are Kontakt based libraries (but thats not the point).

What I meant was that my method confirms you can access NKS functions (if the instrument has them) on a Komplete Kontrol hosted instrument, which Native Instruments could not confirm.

My point was that you need to press Shift and Instance buttons on the hardware keyboard to wake up the device to make it display NKS controls and Lightguide.

It just seems that something about hosting it inside VEP stops the Track Focus updating properly automatically. In my DAW Logic a regular Komplete Kontrol instance inserted into a instrument track will properly switch into NKS mode when the track is selected, but not this way.

But at least it works, pity Komplete Kontrol forces you to use one instance per instrument, there is no way to make a multi, so a bit of a waste in resources and means in VEP you must have one instance per track.

The KK will work with any AU but on limited bases, no keyswitching ......

MacPro 2010 12 core 2.93 ghz 64 GB Mac OS X 10.11 2722 Rocket Raid Sata III card with 8 x ssd
VSL lib on a Raid 0 of 4 x 256 GB ssd Sata III - Raid 0 of 4 x 64 GB for other libs
System on a 1 TB ssd
Audio Motu PCI system 84 ins / 64 outs
Kbd : P80 Yamaha, S88 and S25 Komplete Kontrol, DX7
I-Controls Pro, 2xMidi expression pedals
Synth : many....
---
Macbook pro Retina 2.7 ghz 16 GB
---
Mac Mini server 10.10 (server EyeTV, Itunes, WEB, and Backup )
--
Logic X , Dorico, Band In A Box, ORB Composer
VSL : MIR PRO, Appassionata Strings I, Solo strings , Wind and Brass Complete, Dimension Brass, Overdrive
Kontakt, Omnisphere, QLSO, QLSC, CS 80, Arturia V5, Maximo, Realivox Blue. CS 80 V3, The Orchestra, Art Conductor 5, Genesis Children Choir, Lunaris, Lacrimosa

Final Cut pro
Camera full HD
Posted on Fri, Dec 23 2016 15:35
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1649

Originally Posted by: Janicek Go to Quoted Post


Okay some interesting news. So I was playing around with this again tonight, thinking if there was some other way. So I hooked up it again in Logic Pro X this way:
 
1. Opened up the VEP server application on my main DAW computer (Mac) basically connecting to VEP locally rather than on a slave computer for purposes of testing.
 
2. Added an instance of Komplete Kontrol inside the VEP server rack and within that a Komplete Kontrol instrument.
 
3. Saved this as a server project.
 
4. In Logic added a VEP Server plugin and connected to this project (as usual method).
 
Now as I observed previously, I can play the sounds of Komplete Kontrol from my DAW when connected via VEP, but the keyboard thinks its just a standard midi track so the Lightguide or Hardware Controls do not display Komplete Kontrol values. 
 
If I switch focus the the VEP server on the computer outside the DAW (either by clicking on the VEP software or using VEP to auto raise it) it comes alive and if I switch back into the DAW stays that way, but when I switch track to a non KK instance in Logic it switches into Midi Mode and will not go back when focus is switched back to the VEP/Komplete Kontrol track.
 
So I went back into the VEP server rack and out of curiosity clicked the keyboard symbol in the KK window and sure enough the keyboard sprang back into KK mode. I then remembered that there was a key routine on the hardware to do the same thing.
 
So back in Logic, I used the up/down arrows to select the non KK track to force the loss of KK display, then hit Shift and Instance keys on the KK keyboard (Shift is top left and Instance is near the Browse button). Guess what it works!
  So basically hosting Komplete Kontrol inside a VEP server instance WILL work, but to get focus you have to press Shift + Instance. It seems that Komplete Kontrol cannot update track focus when hosted inside VEP it just needs some help.
 
Now what I have not tested is whether this also works on a slave computer as I have not installed KK software on it as there was no point before. Also personally not sure I ever will as my slaves are maxed out as it is hosting Play and non KK Kontakt libraries. But I can see myself using this method on VIs using KK that are currently saved inside my DAW as loading them separately has its benefits switching projects/optimising CPU performance.
 
Just thought I would post this in case anyone else out there is using Komplete Kontrol and VEP and wanted to do the same.

Janicek - As you mentioned above getting This wonderful Lighguide and knobs to be 'active' in the local puter (inside of VEPRO works like a snap.)   I cannot get the same thing to happen by anything I do on the 3 slaves across my network.  I think this is a HUGE oversight by VSL.   My first impression after buying this S88 / software is how well it enhances VEPRO.   Not since the release of VEPRO has anything had such a time-saving and helpful addition to my workflow (lights/knobs feedback).   Has anyone gotten KK to work in VEPRO on slaves?   VSL - care to chime in.   Please consider this as I am sure it will lead to more sales.

what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Thu, Dec 29 2016 12:28
by Janicek
Joined on Wed, Aug 01 2012, Posts 57

I created a blank Logic project and added a few instances of VEP server. In each VEP project I added a KK instance, then I connected them up in Logic.

So normally in Logic when you switch tracks with KK inside Logic, the keyboard updates to each instrument (otherwise known as Track Focus).

However although all VEP connected KK tracks play correctly when selected, there is no Track Focus. The workaround is to either click the keyboard symbol on the VEP project relating to that track or press the Instance button on the keyboard. Both bring VEP to the front on monitor.

I have 2 monitors, but use both for my DAW choosing to display the Arrange window in one and various editor windows in the other. This means that when VEP comes to the front, I then have to manually switch back to the DAW after switching Instance in the KK popup window. Not workable in a large project and tedious.

Does anyone know a way to switch focus back to the DAW on a Mac using a shortcut or using the KK keyboard? Or a way to retain Track Focus inside VEP?

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