Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Where is the Bass Recorder?
Last post Mon, Jul 25 2016 by William, 19 replies.
Options
Go to last post
Posted on Fri, Jul 22 2016 00:54
by Andreas 1
Joined on Fri, Jun 09 2006, Posts 36

Some weeks ago I bought the recorders because I want to make a simulation of my recorderquartett which was never played by human musicans.

I have to admit that I didn’t look what instruments and articulations the Vienna recorders include (I have many Vienna Instruments and never I was dissatisfied with the content of the collections). But after after receiving the collection I was very astonished that the Vienna Recorders don’t include the bass recorder. The bass recorder is a standard  instrument for recorder quartets and recorder ensembles. It’s not possible to replace it with the Great Bass recorder. Unfortunately I’m not able to make the simulation of my quartet without the Bass Recorder.

It’s a severe shortage that the bass recorder is missing. I hope that soon a supplement will appear with a bass recorder.

 

But in general I’m very satisfied with the Vienna Instruments. BTW: There are still 2 other instruments which I miss: Sopranino-Saxophone and Accordion. 

Posted on Fri, Jul 22 2016 01:46
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

I'm not sure exactly what you paid for when you purchased the recorders but under the "Sample Content" of the recorders near the bottom it says, "Great Bass Recorder."

I admit that I don't own the recorders but is a "bass recorder" different than a "GREAT bass recorder?"

Is that what you were looking for?

Here's a link to the sample content:

http://vsl.co.at/en/Additional_Winds_Bundle/Recorders#!Sample_Content


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Fri, Jul 22 2016 02:07
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

I'm sorry my last post was misleading.  

 

I basically wanted to know what the difference is between a bass recorder and a Great Bass Recorder.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Fri, Jul 22 2016 03:10
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

There is a bass recorder.  I featured it in the demo - "Song of the Forest" - the first recorder heard in the composition.  (Though you have to  scroll down the list to Kersten, William...)

http://vsl.co.at/en/MUSIC

Posted on Fri, Jul 22 2016 09:54
by Andreas 1
Joined on Fri, Jun 09 2006, Posts 36

Vienna Instruments have:

SOPRANO RECORDER, ALTO RECORDER, TENOR RECORDER, GREAT BASS RECORDER

 

But in the Presets and Patches the “Great Bass” is called “Bass”. Also in Williams composition it’s the Great Bass. The Great Bass is in C3, the Bass is in F3.

 

The Bass is in recorder quartets and recorder ensembles ubiquitous. I guess that 90% of the recorder quartets use SATB. The Great Bass is also a common instrument, but not so often used in ensembles like the Bass. 

Posted on Fri, Jul 22 2016 12:51
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

"The bass recorder is a standard  instrument for recorder quartets and recorder ensembles. It’s not possible to replace it with the Great Bass recorder. " - andreas1

This is not true.  The "Great Bass" is the name used for two different recorders, the quart bass in C and the contrabass in F.  The C instrument range is from C in the bass clef to approx. D in the treble, the contrabass is from F in the bass clef to approx. G in the treble. The so-called "bass" is an octave higher than the contrabass. Both "great bass" ranges overlap with the tenor recorder, so either could easily be used for bass parts. In fact the Great Bass will give a lower tessitura while still covering the middle bass notes as well as a richer tone which is probably why it is used in this ensemble.  

Posted on Fri, Jul 22 2016 14:57
by Andreas 1
Joined on Fri, Jun 09 2006, Posts 36

In German the names for recorders were until the 20th century not consistent (cf. Curt Sachs: Reallexikon der Musikinstrumente, Berlin 1913). At latest from the 70s there is a standard for the recorder names (cf. e.g.: Musik in Geschichte und Gegenwart; dtv-Musikatlas; Sevsay: Handbuch der Instrumentationspraxis: Great Bass is in C3, the Bass is in F3. But there is an exception for Renaissance (and rarely for Baroque) music: Sometimes the “Great Bass” is called „Bass“. This is the cause of many misunderstandings about recorder names. I am not as familiar with the English instrument names, but I guess it’s like in German: cf. A. Stiller: Handbook of Instrumentation, University of California Press, 1985; or:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recorder_(musical_instrument).

It’s true that the range oft he Great Bass overlaps with the Tenor. But for me is the Great Bass no alternative to the Bass because the difference in sound. Also I never would replace the Cello in a String Quartet with the contrabass.

Maybe interesting: Moeck is the biggest publisher for recorder music: http://www.moeck.com/en/publishing/sheet-music.html

In the catalogue are only a few compositions with Great Bass (abbreviated gB), but much more for Bass (abbreviated B).

Andrew Stiller wrote in his Handbook of Instrumentation about the Bass, that the Bass is usually available. About the Great Bass he wrote “very rare“.

I don’t understand the decision of VSL to take the Great Bass and not the Bass.

Posted on Fri, Jul 22 2016 19:28
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

Instrument nomenclature is notoriously complicated and unreliable, depending on what source you reference.  However the comparison of distinctions between bass recorder vs. great bass to cello vs. contrabass is specious and disingenuous.  No composer in his right mind would ever substitute those strings for each other.  Not to argue it endlessly, however.  The recorder that was sampled is incredibly beautiful, in fact, I would rank it among the most beautiful of all VSL's sampled instruments, so I for one am glad they sampled that particular recorder.

Nevertheless I appreciate your making the distinction. 

Posted on Sat, Jul 23 2016 16:04
by Andreas 1
Joined on Fri, Jun 09 2006, Posts 36

A question for the VSL employees: Are there any plans to release a bass recorder?

Posted on Sat, Jul 23 2016 16:21
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12890

Hi andreas1, 

A bass recorder is not planned in the near future. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Jul 23 2016 16:55
by Philippe BAYLAC
Joined on Thu, Sep 01 2011, France, Posts 341

Hi Paul,

there is also no planned piccolo ? There are some nice Vivaldi's concertos waiting for it ...

Best.

Philippe.

Posted on Sat, Jul 23 2016 17:13
by Andreas 1
Joined on Fri, Jun 09 2006, Posts 36

Many thanks for your response. What a pity! Unfortunately because of that I can not simulate my quartet with Vienna Instruments. I have tried the Great Bass, but it doesn't sound good.

Posted on Sat, Jul 23 2016 17:28
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12890

Hi Philippe, 

We are planning to record all the instruments we can get our hands on. It simply takes a lot of time to record and edit all of those instruments properly. 

So right now, there is also no piccolo at the horizon. 

And andreas1, I´m sorry that your quartet doesn´t sound like you want it to sound. Maybe it´s a good idea to hire a bass recorder player for that purpose?

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Jul 24 2016 01:37
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

This thread really irritates me.  This guy says the recorder ensemble is not good enough for him.

I don't believe it for one second. HE is not good enough for it. 

It is one of the most outstanding jobs of sampling yet done, far better than anything else sampled for recorders, and the fabulous player who did the recordings is an outstanding virtuoso that anyone using the library gets instant access to.   

I should not post here anymore because I get too irritated, but I find it disgusting - the total lack of appreciation for the outstanding beauty of the various libraries here.   The recorder is a perfected example of the ultimate expertise in sampling that VSL has achieved.  To just blow it off the way this guy does is very disturbing. 

Posted on Sun, Jul 24 2016 05:57
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582
Originally Posted by: andreas1 Go to Quoted Post
I have tried the Great Bass, but it doesn't sound good.



Well, why don't you let us be the judge of that, if I may be so bold. I'd love to hear your recorder quartet realized with VSL. By all means, go ahead and post it :>)

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Jul 24 2016 12:17
by Andreas 1
Joined on Fri, Jun 09 2006, Posts 36

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: andreas1 Go to Quoted Post
I have tried the Great Bass, but it doesn't sound good.
Well, why don't you let us be the judge of that, if I may be so bold. I'd love to hear your recorder quartet realized with VSL. By all means, go ahead and post it :>)

 

Out of context the phrase sounds different than intended:

I mean: With the Great Bass my Quartet doesn’t sound good, because it’s the wrong instrument.

Posted on Sun, Jul 24 2016 12:28
by Andreas 1
Joined on Fri, Jun 09 2006, Posts 36

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

We are planning to record all the instruments we can get our hands on. It simply takes a lot of time to record and edit all of those instruments properly. 

Great to hear!

Posted on Sun, Jul 24 2016 12:29
by Andreas 1
Joined on Fri, Jun 09 2006, Posts 36

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

And andreas1, I´m sorry that your quartet doesn´t sound like you want it to sound. Maybe it´s a good idea to hire a bass recorder player for that purpose?

Thank you for the suggestion, but the effort for this is too large for the purpose.

Posted on Mon, Jul 25 2016 02:05
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

I have no idea now why I responded to this thread - better just to work on some music with the great VSL samples.  I'll stick to that approach. 

You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.