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Legato not working properly
Last post Mon, Oct 24 2016 by MassMover, 11 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 15:17
by petethomas
Joined on Wed, Mar 02 2005, Southampton, Posts 100

I stopped using Vienna a while back due to this issue. I decided to try again, but still there seems to be random issues with legato notes.

For example I have a bassoon (01 BA_perf-legato) playing three legato notes E3 followed by F3 and G3

E3 to F3 is fine, but at the end of F3 there is a gap before G3. (E3 is 9 seconds, F3 and G3 are 4.5 seconds)

If I start the sequencer (Logic) on the F3, then it is fine, there is no gap and the legato works.

Just deosn't work when I want to ave all three notes.

I have tried overlaping the MIDI notes or having them exactly up to the next note. Nothing works.

 

Can anyone help please?

Pete Thomas

petethomas.co.uk
mediamusicforum.com

VI Symphonic Cube, iMac 3.4 i7 16GB RAM, Logic X OS 10.9.5

Sample-Aid - EXS24 Saxophone samples in aid of charity
Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 17:10
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5514

This is probably due to the second legato note not being looped.  It won't sustain through to the next legato.  If you have a bassoon sustain legato patch that should fix it.     

Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 17:23
by petethomas
Joined on Wed, Mar 02 2005, Southampton, Posts 100

I didn't think it was a non-looping issue, as the note itself is long enough when you start on that note.

What is a bassoon sustain legato patch?

Pete Thomas

petethomas.co.uk
mediamusicforum.com

VI Symphonic Cube, iMac 3.4 i7 16GB RAM, Logic X OS 10.9.5

Sample-Aid - EXS24 Saxophone samples in aid of charity
Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 18:16
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

When you play a start note it is a different sample to a legato note, so you can't check it be starting on the shorter not itself. As suggested, either use a sustain note, or play the preceding note slightly shorter, leave a gap, cover it with the sustain pedal and then you will get a new start note. Obviously the legato transition material won't be there, but you would probably only notice if it was pointed out to you.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
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Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 18:38
by petethomas
Joined on Wed, Mar 02 2005, Southampton, Posts 100

Er, can you explain that in some more understandable way???

"you can't check it be starting on the shorter note itself." ??? I have no idea what that means!

Surely if this is legato, it should just be legato without all this complication. Especially after paying 5000 Euro for this.

Pete Thomas

petethomas.co.uk
mediamusicforum.com

VI Symphonic Cube, iMac 3.4 i7 16GB RAM, Logic X OS 10.9.5

Sample-Aid - EXS24 Saxophone samples in aid of charity
Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 21:04
by littlewierdo
Joined on Sun, Apr 24 2016, Posts 236

Originally Posted by: petethomas Go to Quoted Post

Er, can you explain that in some more understandable way???

"you can't check it be starting on the shorter note itself." ??? I have no idea what that means!

Surely if this is legato, it should just be legato without all this complication. Especially after paying 5000 Euro for this.

I cant say this for sure but what I think is being said is this...

When Vienna recorded Performance Legato notes, they recorded them in two ways, the raw note being played by itself AND as a transition note. The transition note is the sound you would hear when an instrument is going from another note to the note you are looking for. So for example, when recording a middle C, they didnt just record a middle C. They also recorded the transition from B to C, Bb to C, A to C, Ab to C, G to C, etc. covering the entiring range of every possible note transition in that instruments range. So, when you decide to have an instrument go from a G to a C, it isnt just a flat G, then a flat C you hear, its a flat G and a transition to the C that you will hear. These transition notes are used in the Vienna Instruments player to give you a more human sound when you are going from one note to another, but because they are transition notes, ie. 2 notes that were recorded (the player has to first play say an A and then jump to a C), they are shorter recordings.

For more information on this, go here, pick the overview video and skip ahead to the 2:38 minute mark and watch until the 4:11 minute mark, Paul demonstrates the performance legato transitions very effectively in this minute and a half section.

https://vsl.co.at/en/Software/Vienna_Instruments#!Video_Demos

These transition notes might help to achieve a more realtistic sound in another way, what a player is physically able to play. A common problem with soundfonts is, we dont have to breathe to play the notes. When transitioning from one note to another, that requires more air than just playing a single note by itself and as such, this transition will be shorter. So it might be a good indication, if you are looking for a more realistic sound, that you need to put a pause in for the player you are simulating to be able to breath as that player would in real life.

So, you have two options here. if you care about having a more realistic sound, consider putting in a small gap big enough for a breath. OR, you can use the sustain patch instead of the legato patch, they are nearly identical, but the sustain notes are significantly longer (maybe even digitally extended to forever, I cant remember if a sustain patch will play until you let up on the key or eventually will stop playing a note). If you scroll through the different articulations, you should find the sustain patch, usually labeled with 'sus'.

Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 21:12
by petethomas
Joined on Wed, Mar 02 2005, Southampton, Posts 100

No, I tried the sustain patch, it doesn't sound real when going from one note to another, hence I want to use the performance legato..

The thing is I am trying to do something realistic. I am a woodwind player, and so I understand about breathing. What I am writing shoud be playable in one breath. This passage needs to be legato, so having a gap isn't what I want.

Pete Thomas

petethomas.co.uk
mediamusicforum.com

VI Symphonic Cube, iMac 3.4 i7 16GB RAM, Logic X OS 10.9.5

Sample-Aid - EXS24 Saxophone samples in aid of charity
Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 22:14
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Originally Posted by: petethomas Go to Quoted Post

Er, can you explain that in some more understandable way???

"you can't check it be starting on the shorter note itself." ??? I have no idea what that means!

Surely if this is legato, it should just be legato without all this complication. Especially after paying 5000 Euro for this.

Sorry. Typing on my phone. I meant that if you start by playing the note that you said was too short, you are getting a start sample, not the legato sample.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 22:43
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5514

A sustained legato patch is found in many of the woodwinds and brass.   It is a patch that has the legato target notes (note after a legato transition) looped.  However, many of the legato instruments also have non-looped notes.  You can't tell if the target note is looped by freshly attacking a note as that is the sustain sample, not the target legato sample.  That is how the instruments are programmed - a sustain note which is usually looped is connected to a legato note that comes after it. 

Just find the bassoon legato-sustained instrument, and your problem will be gone.  Maybe you don't have it - I have no idea of the contents of every edition - I have only the full symphonic cube which has sustained legato woodwinds.  Some of them are a bit hidden in a folder marked "performance speed variation."   

Posted on Tue, Oct 18 2016 23:28
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12194

Hi, 

The "98 Resources" folder in the Patch Browser of many instruments contains a legato-sustain variation. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Oct 24 2016 14:09
by MassMover
Joined on Mon, Sep 29 2008, Posts 235

As an alternative you can create a duplicate version of the legato patch and apply a little time-stretching if you own VI Pro.

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