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Synchron Strings I
Last post Thu, May 31 2018 by JimmyHellfire, 501 replies.
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Posted on Thu, Dec 07 2017 08:56
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

Originally Posted by: Rob Elliott Go to Quoted Post

I really need to hear how (all by itself) 'controllable' the non to vibrato sound is.  For me the GREAT weakness of ANY sample string section is its inability to do this convincingly without artifacts/phasing.   For me if Sample strings sit for more than a brief moment without some change to vibrato (not just xfade between sampled layers BUT vibrato and I am personlly taken out of it.)

I would  understand your Point, if you were talking about Solostrings, since one Violin alone do not produce any phasing while changing the intensity of vibrato. But: Synchronstrings I are Section-Strings. It appears to me not only quite natural if you have phasing effects between multiple stringplayers playing the same note especially while they are increasing their Vibrato intensity, I even think that is exactly what we want and expect to hear to make a difference between Soloist and Section. (While  - If I understood right and can believe Embertone - It seems to be even possible nowadays to map Soloviolinsamples in a way that would allow xfade without producingadditional phasing problems.) However for Section Strings increased Phasing effects with increased vibrato seem to me not the problem but something quite natural.

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
Posted on Thu, Dec 07 2017 11:08
by lucor
Joined on Fri, Jan 17 2014, Posts 3

I'm on the fence of getting my first VSL instrument in Synchron Strings, I'm seriously blown away at the moment!

My only problem is, that I'm pretty intimidated by the scale of this whole library with my measly 32gb of RAM. Somebody told me however, that if run from an SSD you could load the whole Syncron Percussion with only 2.5gb of RAM if the buffer is at 1526. Is something similar possible with the Strings?

Posted on Thu, Dec 07 2017 11:20
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 11351

Hi lucor, 

You have a few options regarding RAM optimization, but with the Synchron Strings, the preload size should only be HALF the usual Preload Size of 16384 Samples => which is 8192 Samples. This way you will get a great and reliable performance (this always also depends on your arrangement, the more you stream, the more performance you need there). Might well be that a lower setting with the Standard Library is possible, and we're also working on more optimized options there. 

With our other "stereo-only" libraries, you can lower the Preload Size to 1536 Samples (so you could load 10 times more samples using only 1/10th of the RAM you'd usually need). This will work until you overdo it with insane TUTTI chords 

There are also options like "Activate on MIDI Activity", which loads all presets without samples and only loads samples when the articulation is triggered once. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Dec 07 2017 11:41
by lucor
Joined on Fri, Jan 17 2014, Posts 3

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

Hi lucor, 

You have a few options regarding RAM optimization, but with the Synchron Strings, the preload size should only be HALF the usual Preload Size of 16384 Samples => which is 8192 Samples. This way you will get a great and reliable performance (this always also depends on your arrangement, the more you stream, the more performance you need there). Might well be that a lower setting with the Standard Library is possible, and we're also working on more optimized options there. 

With our other "stereo-only" libraries, you can lower the Preload Size to 1536 Samples (so you could load 10 times more samples using only 1/10th of the RAM you'd usually need). This will work until you overdo it with insane TUTTI chords 

There are also options like "Activate on MIDI Activity", which loads all presets without samples and only loads samples when the articulation is triggered once. 

Best, 
Paul

Hey Paul, thanks for the quick answer. So how much RAM would it take, for example, to load all articulations of the 1st Violins with a buffer of 8192? Have you run any tests yet?

And the "Activate on MIDI Activity" is similiar to Kontakt's purge function, I guess? If an SSD can keep up with loading all these samples in real time, that would also be an awesome way of reducing RAM usage.

Posted on Thu, Dec 07 2017 15:05
by bbelius
Joined on Sat, Mar 14 2015, Posts 543

Hi Paul,

will you do an introduction video (like the one for dimension strings) before the early-bird offer ends?

Best, Ben

Ben
Technical Support - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Dec 07 2017 15:10
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1654

Yea, sorry mispoke on the phasing for sections - what I should have said is 'smooth' transition / evolving from non to vibrato samples.   For me anyways, this is never 'natural' and smooth with samples - like live sessions.   Just hoping and a wishing.   ;)

 

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Rob Elliott Go to Quoted Post

I really need to hear how (all by itself) 'controllable' the non to vibrato sound is.  For me the GREAT weakness of ANY sample string section is its inability to do this convincingly without artifacts/phasing.   For me if Sample strings sit for more than a brief moment without some change to vibrato (not just xfade between sampled layers BUT vibrato and I am personlly taken out of it.)

I would  understand your Point, if you were talking about Solostrings, since one Violin alone do not produce any phasing while changing the intensity of vibrato. But: Synchronstrings I are Section-Strings. It appears to me not only quite natural if you have phasing effects between multiple stringplayers playing the same note especially while they are increasing their Vibrato intensity, I even think that is exactly what we want and expect to hear to make a difference between Soloist and Section. (While  - If I understood right and can believe Embertone - It seems to be even possible nowadays to map Soloviolinsamples in a way that would allow xfade without producingadditional phasing problems.) However for Section Strings increased Phasing effects with increased vibrato seem to me not the problem but something quite natural.

what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Thu, Dec 07 2017 18:18
by Piotr Katzpersky
Joined on Mon, May 11 2015, Polska, Posts 30

Second on RAM question! How much should we've got? Can we work with Synchron with 8 GB as requirements site says? Or maybe without 32 it will be far from fun?

Posted on Thu, Dec 07 2017 18:21
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1978

I'd recommend to run the Synchron library off of an SSD and have adequate RAM in your machine and optimize your pre-load buffer sizes in the Directory. 

Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 04:43
by SJSF
Joined on Sat, Sep 18 2010, Utah, Posts 497

Originally Posted by: lucor Go to Quoted Post

My only problem is, that I'm pretty intimidated by the scale of this whole library with my measly 32gb of RAM.

Well there's a way to fix that... 

-Sean

Studio One 3.5 | VIP 2.3.0.15962 | VEP 6.0.16502 | RME HDSPe AIO | scoredfilms.com
Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 09:19
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 11351

Hi, 

I'll do my best to have videos available before the Early Bird Offer ends. 

Regarding RAM, with 1st violins only: If you want to load all available microphones with all available articulations, much RAM is necessary (these are the quick tests on my computer):

With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 10 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins.
With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 5 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins. 

There will be alternatives available for a more resource-friendly workflow, like a ready-made stereo-mix
The presets will load without any samples loaded ("disabled cells"), and you will like the option to load articulations in only when you need them ("Activate cells on MIDI Activity". 

The "Optimize" option will also be a great help for smaller setups (the the sample player learn which samples of which articulations it actually needs for the specific arrangement). 

So there are quite some helpers there, but you are right: Synchron Strings I is by no means a small library.

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 09:54
by matthieu.lechowski
Joined on Thu, Nov 13 2008, Posts 42

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

I'd recommend to run the Synchron library off of an SSD and have adequate RAM in your machine and optimize your pre-load buffer sizes in the Directory. 

I don't understand why we can't take advantage of SSD with Synchron Strings ?

Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 10:03
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 212

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

Regarding RAM, with 1st violins only: If you want to load all available microphones with all available articulations, much RAM is necessary (these are the quick tests on my computer):

With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 10 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins.
With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 5 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins. 

Best, 
Paul

Hi Paul!  Is this a typo?

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.5. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 10:13
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

Originally Posted by: matthieu.lechowski Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

I'd recommend to run the Synchron library off of an SSD and have adequate RAM in your machine and optimize your pre-load buffer sizes in the Directory. 

I don't understand why we can't take advantage of SSD with Synchron Strings ?

Yes we can. And it is as Guy said highly recommended to do so, since a deeply and detailed sampled Librariy multiplicated by lots of microphone positions (especially if you keep the Full-Library loaded) do need even with SSD's and optimized Preloadbuffer still a good portion of RAM.

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 10 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins.

With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 5 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins. 

Best, 
Paul

Hi Paul!  Is this a typo?

 

Presumably it should be

"With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 10 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins.

With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 5 GB of RAM for the STANDARD Libtrary / 1st Violins."

with 32 GB RAM you are ready to load 1.+2. Violins of th all Microphonepositions of the FULL-Library with all Articlations tio let them play completly "insane tuttichord" and with another 1-2 32GB PC's like that you are ready to let the whole Synchronstrings I be loaded and play completly "insane tuttichord"....

However in real world you will neither need always load all Microphonepositions nor all articulations and VSL obviously provided a bunch of options to reduce the amount of actual loaded articulations what means in consequence your 32 GB will presumably be still reasonably usable.

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 10:34
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 481

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

Regarding RAM, with 1st violins only: If you want to load all available microphones with all available articulations, much RAM is necessary (these are the quick tests on my computer):

With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 10 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins.
With a Preload size of 8192 Samples, you will need around 5 GB of RAM for the FULL Libtrary / 1st Violins. 

Best, 
Paul

Hi Paul!  Is this a typo?

No it's the art of reading between Paul's lines ;)

This Synchron Series will be a bigger Hardware-Challenge - more than I have expected it would be.

I think I have to re-plan ... 

—Lurker-mode—
Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 10:42
by FabioA
Joined on Fri, Jan 13 2012, Posts 90

Ouch. 

So for the full library (400 gb) you need to load around 50 gb on RAM. It's like 12 % of totale samples go on RAM.

Am I wrong or it s an higher % respect the previous VSL product? I mean considering the same preload size.

Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 10:59
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 11351

Hi, 

My suggestion is to take advantage of the options that are available, to minimize RAM consumption. 

You will also get away with a lower Pre-Load size with an arrangement, it all depends on how you use the strings, with all the X-Fading Options, and the available mic positions. 

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 11:05
by FabioA
Joined on Fri, Jan 13 2012, Posts 90

Thanks a lot Paul,

still sounds very optmized if we consider how many samples have to be streamed at the same time.

Let's also hope that newest ddr4 RAM and SSD M.2 will help us virtual orchestrator a lot :)

Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 13:16
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

Originally Posted by: LAJ Go to Quoted Post

This Synchron Series will be a bigger Hardware-Challenge - more than I have expected it would be.

I think I have to re-plan ... 

Yes of course it ill be a bigger Hardware Challenge. It is alomst like the previous VSL-Libraries have been when they were released. When I started with the Cube we even had no 64 bit Systems at all and I needed 4 PC's with scracly 3 GB-RAM loaded to keep all sections simultaneously working It is not so long ago that I had for the first time the chance to keep the Superpackage loaded on one 64GB System. Now nearly 15 Years after the Cube was released we start again and presumably will come back again to networking at least for more elaborated projects.

But what did you think will be the situation again 10-15 Years later when VSL will start his next groundbreaking Orchestral library-Series. Of course it will be again 10 times more powefull and 10 times more hardware consumptive simply because the development of the available hardware will be not sleep either.

In short it might be necessary in the near future to keep an eye on the capacity of the hardware but imho over the years this wont stay that much a problem. Just lets wait how the available hardware looks like when the Synchon-Series is complete in the next years.

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 14:18
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 481

 

I calculated 64 GB for Perc/Drums, Strings, and all basic Winds ;) ... shit!

Since the appearance of the Synchron Percussions 1, it was clear that a complete Synchron-Library will not be a ultimate must-have for "mainstream-musicians" too soon. (Especially because of the Hardware-costs)

What you have to see today in addition to that is, that many people have thier Harddrives already full of Composer-Libraries. That was not the case when the VSL started their business. (And I'm glad that I never seriously collected some other Library)

But finally I have still more than 3K € Vouchers for future-products ... means: I have to take some action!

—Lurker-mode—
Posted on Fri, Dec 08 2017 15:30
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

Originally Posted by: LAJ Go to Quoted Post

 

I calculated 64 GB for Perc/Drums, Strings, and all basic Winds ;) ... shit!

Since the appearance of the Synchron Percussions 1, it was clear that a complete Synchron-Library will not be a ultimate must-have for "mainstream-musicians" too soon. (Especially because of the Hardware-costs)

What you have to see today in addition to that is, that many people have thier Harddrives already full of Composer-Libraries. That was not the case when the VSL started their business. (And I'm glad that I never seriously collected some other Library)

But finally I have still more than 3K € Vouchers for future-products ... means: I have to take some action!

1) 64GB seem to be not that bad to work (with some RAM-Managemant) You simply have to care for, that you do not load, what you do not inevitably need. And as Paul mentionned often enough VSLprovide some tools to help you. However, while 64 GB RAM was enough to keep nearly the whole previous Superpackage simultaneously loaded this will be presumably no longer the case with the Synchron-Series.

2) When I started with VSL of course I already had several other Libraries installed and in use (I remember Miroslav Vituos, XSample, lots of Akai Libraries loaded in Kontakt, several Gigasample-libraries). If you need storage go for another (larger) SSD. The amount of Storage which is needed raises as the prices for storage constantly fall. VSL just again pushes the limits

3) 3K sound good, spend another 3K for a dedicated Slave and you are fine

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
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