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Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 01:21
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5527

Finally began using the Synchron Strings and they are MIND-BLOWING!  Sorry if I am going over the top but this is the greatest string library ever created, it blows everything else off the map.  I am so excited by this sound!  I now want to do everything I recorded over again with Synchron (even though I love previous VSL strings). 

The sound is so perfect out of the box, and the variations of lyrical vibrato legato are sublime.  They are heartbreakingly beautiful.  It is like having the greatest players right in your room.  The real nature of delicately varied, sensitive string playing has been captured by this awesome library.   I have only started to audition it and I am just amazed.  It is a joy to use instantly.  All the instruments sound so perfect and characteristic of the rich and beautiful timbres of these great players.  It is a thrill to use these sounds.  Congratulations to the VSL for this incredible musical and technological accomplishment.  It is the best that has ever been done in the field. 

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 08:39
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 334

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post
Sorry if I am going over the top but this is the greatest string library ever created, it blows everything else off the map.

Not to curb your enthusiasm, but that was clearly way over the top.

There's a lot to like about this library, but to me, it's almost a letdown to be honest. I do love the tone and spacial depth, it truly is special. But just right now, it's kind of hard to justify the excessive ressource requirements considering the current shortcomings. At the moment, it's a string library that takes up way more space and eats through more RAM than any other string library, but in some ways, offers less.

The biggest problem are obviously the quite dysfunctional legato patches. For a library that was supposed to "re-invent legato", this is a big one.

The other thing is that considering how much excessive disk space and processing power it takes to run this thing, you're kind of left of with quite a bare bones set of articulations. While the shorts are indeed great, a modern string library really needs to offer more that just staccato. At least spiccato really should be in there.

The omission of portamento is a huge bummer, and personally, I miss Col Legno as well.

So bottom line ... greatest string library ever created? Most definitely not. More like a highly confusing product at this point. Soundwise, it has all the potential in the world, and the added dynamic layers do make a difference. The soft attack and lyrical vibrato patches are really beautiful, the pizzicato is great ... celli + basses shorts in octaves creates a deep and powerful sensation not present in other libraries. But just at the moment, there's some things missing and/or apparently broken, so it kind of sits on my drive like a petrified giant.

Really not trying to bash the library - there's already a quite disgraceful thread over at V.I. Control for that - but sharing my honest reservations as a long time VSL user. Synchron Woodwinds and Brass are on the horizon after all.

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 11:18
by fritzflotow
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 322
I want to chime in here and back up Jimmys post. This is not to support any negativity that spreads through the internet on various channels, but rather from a guy who had (and still has) high hopes for VSL to once again lead the market with the best orchestral libraries out there!
But at this point, the Synchron Strings are far from that, I am afraid! I have several thoughts on that and I do not want to prematurely decide on any of them, because it takes a certain time to play and refelect and I only installed the library yesterday and played for an hour. Here only my most obvious observations.
While there is something to like about the short notes, it seems to me for the sake of playability the sample starts have been cut to early. I surely like to have a short patch as playable as Synchron, but when it comes at the price of getting unrealistic results, I would prefer a less playable one (or rather an option to switch between playable and good sounding, like other libraries offer without the need of loading an entirely new set of samples into ram). I might be wrong about this, but I believe this is also the main reson, why the shorts don't sound convincing to me in the higher dynamics. There is something there which suddenly makes you freeze, when you hit a velocity in the higher range and I am not talking about the fact that those are "harsh"! No, they just sound as not part of the performance. Clearly I know, that those harsh shorts cannot be played in rapid succession by string players, but even if you just hit one chord or note it sounds strange in a way I still cannot put my finger on it, why ... my best guess is, it is the editing. Further, I generally find those shorts a little to generic in their approach. There is only those super shorts and normal short and to be totally honest, I cannot hear much difference between those. They rather appear to me like time streched versions of the same (not saying, they are!) and it feels a little bit like waste of recources. I would much prefer a more string technique-oriented approach to shorts, like having a real spiccato (not going over the top with the dynamics) and a noticibly longer and meatier staccato (going all the way up there) and possibly other options (not necessary for a volume 1!). To sum up the shorts, I like them in the low dynmics quite a lot, but they need to become less exact, more human in some way. Otherwise, I can see not much use for them on their own (without layering with other samples) and this should reall be the case with a recource hungry library like this!
Regarding sutains, I lke the playable fp and sfz longs very much, as those are very useful and its great to have them like this with a sustained note after it! The normal sustains though seem a bit lifeless to me and in combination with all the legato techniques I just don't get a singing tone like in other libraries, although the competition just has 3 velocity layers most of the time. This IMO is a shame. I find one or two extra dynamic layers are justified by these sustains having more depth for very quiet stuff. I can see that Synchron is probably the best library out there for very intimate, ppp - p moments. But to my taste there is nothing to connect in between the layers. Crossfading them by CC does give some kind expressivity, but it always sounds held back to me and is far from a singing tone, which is what people arguably need most of the time when playingstring legato passages. I think you should have observed the competition more in that regard, as their have quite some improvements been made in the last decade. Certainly, I acknowledge, there are also drawbacks resulting from those techniques, mostly noticable in less playability and I appreciate the fact that VSL is trying to offer an entirely playble package here. But to me, a library of that size is just not justifiable if it focuses so much on that playabiity aspect over providing useful, less generic patches that represent the most needed (for Volume 1) string techniques to reproduce realistic sounding results.
The same goes for the legato techniques. I have to test them more throughly for sure and I find them better then a lot of people do for the most part, actually! But they are also a bit generic, seemingly crafted to provide some variations of a very playable patch. While I appreciate that to a certain degree, I keep wondering what to use these for ... so many times a patch sounds not bad, is very responsive under the fingers, but at the same time just doesn't sound like anything I would expect from a string orchestra. So, my whish for the legatos would be to keep some of that playability, but expand and improve a lot in realism, even if that means sacrificing the playabilty at times.
Altogether, I still hope the synchron series can be turned into a major success and the potential is there! But I believe, some of the core VSL philosophy has to be rethought to a certain degree. There is not so much use in the playbility aspect, if the musical expressiv result is often so much shallower then with the competition. I like the fact, that you guys tried to go over the top with e.g. velocity layers, but I am afraid I have to say there currently is not enough there to justify taxing your computer memory to this degree! There is positive, like the quiet stuff you can get out of these strings, but over all I have to say, this library falls short in just to many aspects, given its price (RSP) and first and foremost recource hunger. i hope you are listening and I whish you the best for 2018.
Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 11:21
by fritzflotow
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 322

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post
Really not trying to bash the library - there's already a quite disgraceful thread over at V.I. Control for that - but sharing my honest reservations as a long time VSL user. Synchron Woodwinds and Brass are on the horizon after all.

Neither do I as I hope I made perfectly clear. But regarding that very long thread on VI-Control: Minus some of the usual noise from it quite an important read for the VSL team IMO ...

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 12:37
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 334

Originally Posted by: fritzflotow Go to Quoted Post
But regarding that very long thread on VI-Control: Minus some of the usual noise from it quite an important read for the VSL team IMO ...

That's why I appreaciate you chiming in here and offering your - in my opinion - very objective and precise observations. It's important to have this discussion in a critical, but objective and level-headed manner. The team should be aware of the criticism, and I do hope they're not looking past it - even if the natural reaction would be to do so, considering th vitriol in the aforementioned V.I. Control thread.

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 13:58
by MMKA
Joined on Tue, May 22 2012, Posts 385

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

Finally began using the Synchron Strings and they are MIND-BLOWING!  Sorry if I am going over the top but this is the greatest string library ever created, it blows everything else off the map.  I am so excited by this sound!  I now want to do everything I recorded over again with Synchron (even though I love previous VSL strings). 

The sound is so perfect out of the box, and the variations of lyrical vibrato legato are sublime.  They are heartbreakingly beautiful.  It is like having the greatest players right in your room.  The real nature of delicately varied, sensitive string playing has been captured by this awesome library.   I have only started to audition it and I am just amazed.  It is a joy to use instantly.  All the instruments sound so perfect and characteristic of the rich and beautiful timbres of these great players.  It is a thrill to use these sounds.  Congratulations to the VSL for this incredible musical and technological accomplishment.  It is the best that has ever been done in the field. 

 

Without saying anything about the critical words, that are written in this thread, I want to say that I recognized myself in the reaction of William. All I can say this moment from my own experience is, that I love the overal sound of this library and are thankful for the choice I made, to be an "early bird".

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 15:02
by Piotr Katzpersky
Joined on Mon, May 11 2015, Polska, Posts 30

There is something strange in this library, on sustains and legatos to be precise. When I play it, bash random notes on keyboard it sounds fantastic - incredibly responsive and playable as hell. Maybe not 100% "realistic", but fun and almost impressive. But when it comes to sequencing, things start to look different, it's much less fluent, much more complicated and the feeling of responsivness fades out like a morning mist.

Today I finished my first synchron based piece (it is on my Orfium for interested ones - name is Dusk) and while I truly love the sound I must admit that I had few bumps during sequencing it - and it is not complex piece of music. The biggest problem was too much attack on legatos and sustains, sometimes almost close to mild sfz. I managed to tame it a bit with changing attack with cc's, but it is far from "a new level of ease-of-use." Also when I used repetitions on longs, second one started always with (much) more attack.

The second thing which baffles me is hugeness of the whole thing. We've got 7-8 velocity layers for longs but during crossfade reduced to 5-6. So why do we need so much velocities on sustains? Should we rely only on velocity control and let go the changes of timbre during sustains?

I don't want to be taken as a troll, because I love the sound, I love expressivness, I have no problem with basic set of articulations (but I paid early bird price and took advantage of free voucher promo). But I'm afraid that any expansion with additional articulations will make this library way, waaay too big (with missing legatos it is more than 200GB, so we will get about 260 - 300GB for standard lib when they come out).

I'm one of early birds, I know I bought unfinished product and I still believe that Synchron Player will improve workflow and controls substantialy (because it is clear that VI is not great for multi-mic setup, even though I love this piece of software), will add legato control (speed, volume), will use those new algorithms you guys wrote about on site and make sequencing a breeze. But it would be nice to get confirmation from VSL that indeed in current player not everything works as intended.

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 15:06
by ka00
Joined on Mon, Nov 06 2017, Posts 1

Yes, I have to say there is much to love about the sound, but respectfully, the legatos in their current form are not realistic sounding, in my opinion, let alone “reinventing” legato as the marketing claimed. I still have high hopes that further developments are happening that will produce something that lives up to those claims.

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 15:27
by Sovereign
Joined on Sun, Nov 05 2017, Posts 19

I own many of the big flagship string libraries, and I'll take exception to the claim that it's the "greatest" out there. It's not and in fact there are worrying aspects to a degree that I am even reconsidering keeping Synchron on my system, let alone invest in further Synchron products. When VSL announced Synchron I was al giddy, expecting this to be excellent and a revolutionary product compared to every competitor out there, specifically the legato. But right now after downloading all of it disappointment has set it. I can get way more musical results from competitor libraries with minimal effort when it comes to soaring string lines. And while I recognise that the legatos are currently incomplete, the ones which were released are not inspiring confidence. It seems realism has taken a back seat to playability, the legato transitions are extremely short and the destination notes lack necessary liveliness. I'd have expected VSL to take a close look at how competitors have delivered over the past years when it comes to wet string libraries and legato, for you'd want to improve on those rather than release a product which IMO seems to belong in the past. 

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 15:40
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 238

Originally Posted by: Piotr Katzpersky Go to Quoted Post
But it would be nice to get confirmation from VSL that indeed in current player not everything works as intended.

Hey,
good that you started to explain your concerns here in this forum, in a respectful way. Everything is said so far and I totally agree with it, especially on the legato issue. It does sound a bit synthy, because every player is totally in tune. Other libraries manage this in some way, I don't know why. I am not a string player, so I cannot judge for myself on the nature of a legato, but I have to confess that I am spoilt by all the other libraries in terms of their legato sound. Maybe VSL has a different thinking on what a real/true legato sounds like? Or are all these other libraries wrong in their thinking? I am just asking, I am not blaming anyone.

It would also be nice to know which type of legato it actually is. The terms "fingered" (slurred?) and "bowed" legato are in a way standardized. Are the regular legatos bowed ones, so they sound more detached, because VSL used to sample détaché on every other library, and now this articulation is missing?

For me (I have obtained the standard version) the list price is too high in relation to the articulations, and I am missing some "basic" articulations like spiccatos, and of course, some re-inventions as promised. I don't know if the emphasis lies on traditional or a more hollywood-like approach. I would rather prefer the second one and I hoped so, because VSL assembled this "Scoring Bundle" in one of their recent monthly offerings. I don't quite like to name other libraries here, but take Cinmatic Studio Strings (CSS) for example: They have spiccatos, col legnos, harmonics and a simulation of con sordino. Okay, this is Synchron Strings I, but it would help if one could get a hint of what to expect from the second volume? More articulations or a con sordino version? Maybe divisi?

My final thought is: If Synchron Player will improve the legato sound and other issues, why do VSL let us fumble with VI Pro knowing that it is not sounding good? Or are they convinced of their sound? Then, actually, I expected way too much, and I think I can expect more in relation to what other libraries developed over the years in terms of legato, usability and innovation. A simple marcato overlay is no innovation for me, sorry. When I read "different bowstroke attacks" I expected some Spitfire (or Orchestral Tools) behaviour as in their Performance Legato.

I hope I was respectful, I actually always want to be. The overall sound of the samples is gorgeous, especially on the lowest velocities (= the room as an instrument). And I want this library to be great, it has definitely GREAT potential.

I wish a happy New Year 2018 to everyone! :)

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 16:04
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5527

Jimmy Hellfire, the Old Muppet, needs his ears cleaned out.  

I have used all the string libraries since VSL came into existence in 2000 - actually before with Garritan, Siedlaczek and MIroslav - and THIS IS THE BEST.  Especially out of the box.  

The legatos are fantastic sounding because of the variations as well as the number of velocity layers.  The amount of detail now created in the performance by all the dynamic layers is what puts this over the top compared to any other library. 

It is obviously not yet complete.  I thought that was obvious.    Also -concerning how much resources it takes - I downloaded this entire library onto my secondary slave - a single modest i7 4770 4-core with 32 GB of RAM and it performs FLAWLESSLY. I haven't even tried it yet on my Xeon system.

If Jimmy Hellfire had the Berlin Philharmonic or London Symphony at his disposal he would probably be sniffing "It is not good enough for me ... the legatos are not smooth enough... the staccatissimo is simply too short! " This is a common behavior today - criticize something great to make yourself appear discerning and sophisticated.  

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 16:13
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 238

Hi William,

do you mean that the legato of other libraries actually is wrong or even worse? 

A lot of people (inlcuding me) are accustomed (or even spoilt) to the sound of these "hollywood" slurred legatos. Nearly every other library nowadays sounds like this, so I guess it has become a "standard" in some way. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm not a string player, and cannot judge on the nature of a legato, but I have to confess that I do prefer the competition.

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 16:24
by fritzflotow
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 322

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post
Jimmy Hellfire, the Old Muppet, needs his ears cleaned out.  (...)

If Jimmy Hellfire had the Berlin Philharmonic or London Symphony at his disposal he would probably be sniffing "It is not good enough for me ... the legatos are not smooth enough... the staccatissimo is simply too short! " This is a common behavior today - criticize something great to make yourself appear discerning and sophisticated.  

Clearly, the level of vitriol is not reserved to the VI-Control forum, only ... William, we all appreciate that your opinion seems to be quite contrary to ours and of course there is always some level of taste involved with judging the liking or no-liking a sample library. But, please, do respect opinions deferring from yours in the same manner. We are all here because we wish the best for VSLs success, except some of us have some problems with how this product has turned out so far. This is by far not a minority opinion, so you should not consider that all bollocks.

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 16:32
by Sovereign
Joined on Sun, Nov 05 2017, Posts 19

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post
I have used all the string libraries since VSL came into existence in 2000 - actually before with Garritan, Siedlaczek and MIroslav - and THIS IS THE BEST.  Especially out of the box.
Wow, blast from the past. Do you live in a bubble William? If those are the best examples you can think of it looks like you skipped more than a decade worth of innovation. Plus it's really sad if you have to compare Synchron to those outdated libraries, "it is better than Miroslav" is certainly not doing Synchron a favor.

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 16:36
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 334

Originally Posted by: Pixelpoet1985 Go to Quoted Post

Hi William,

do you mean that the legato of other libraries actually is wrong or even worse? 

A lot of people (inlcuding me) are accustomed (or even spoilt) to the sound of these "hollywood" slurred legatos. Nearly every other library nowadays sounds like this, so I guess it has become a "standard" in some way. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm not a string player, and cannot judge on the nature of a legato, but I have to confess that I do prefer the competition.

The legati of many string libraries today are exaggarated. For example, even the standard, normal speed legato in Cinematic Studio Strings is actually VERY slurred. Same as with many other aspects of today's life, apparently some musical characteristics need to be almost comedically over-sold to be noticed.

It's not bad. It should be within a sophisticated libraries' repertoire. But the problem with Synchron Strings legato isn't the characteristics. There seems to be something inherently odd, maybe even off in the scripting and/or editing. It's not that is sounds "different", it doesn't sound or behave quite "right".

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 16:41
by dterry
Joined on Thu, Jan 30 2003, Posts 42

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post

At the moment, it's a string library that takes up way more space and eats through more RAM than any other string library, but in some ways, offers less.

The simple solution is to use a single mic position - sure, not ideal, especially if you are going for an Atmos mix, but this is really no different from any other multi-mic library.  I played around with the different mic options, and the Room mix, and found the Main L+R to be just fine, and easier to pan wider to fit with my mix and other libraries.  Disclaimer here - I typically take a single mic and mix my own templates anyway to fit the overall sound I am going for, and I've spent a lot of time finding the best ways to do this.  I know for users who want to pull up all mic positions and have the "out of the box" mix options available, yes, you need more RAM.  That's the tradeoff - more options require more resources. 

I have the full Synchron library, with all cells active, all articulations, single mic position, loaded with my template and all other sections on my host PC within 64G of RAM (several SSDs for streaming), no problem.  It is easier to mix a single mic position with other libraries; and it is easier to write with all arts than trying to fake a missing articulation.

fritzflowtow wrote:

While there is something to like about the short notes, it seems to me for the sake of playability the sampe starts have been cut to early. I surely like to have a short patch as playable as Synchron, but when it comes at the price of getting unrealistic results, I would prefer a less playble one (or rather an option to switch between playable and good sounding, like other libraries offer without the need of loading an entirely new set of samples into ram).


I understand your point and sure, it is nice to have a little more natural attack.  However, coming from using several other major string libraries, I have to disagree in general.  Inconsistent shorts (attacks, levels, and even lengths) is frustratingly time-consuming in some other libraries - the best/most used libraries, not the inexpensive smaller libs.   Round robins that vary 3-6db in volume made some patches in my main string library unusable.  Inconsistent short attacks frequently require extensive editing to a cue to fix poor timing, and some patches, again, are completely unusable because those attacks aren't consistent from layer to layer, note to note. 

I am new to VSL libraries (having used VEPro for years, but never their libraries), and I can say without a doubt the accuracy is going to save a lot of time with mockups.  The shorts have already replaced another library in the cue I am working on at the moment. 

As far as legato complaints, there always seem to be tradeoffs.  The best library I have, and have used for easily playable legatos suffers from too much slur.  So, while they sound great sometimes (if not overly romantic most of the time), they have to be dialed back or note-to-note transitions edited to avoid the legato transition altogether.  Synchron will require a different approach I think, but I am already hoping to see legatos in Violins 2 and Violas in some update (Synchron 2?).

Personally, I am quite happy with Synchron Strings 1 as a solid starting point for the series.  It is an excellent string library, and I don't get paid to say so. 

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 17:09
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 334

@dterry, I really don't think that the point of a multi-mic library is to not use them. I could also save system ressources by not using half of the articulations. Or using Violins 1 only. You get the point.

Generally, with multi-mic libraries, I don't think that using a single mic position is good or desirable most of the time. Not with Spitfire, not with Orchestral Tools, Cinematic Studio series OR Synchron.

But ressource requirements themselves aren't my main point of criticism. An advanced and modern library of course will need the horsepower to drive it. I'm already used to that from other demanding professional libraries. As a matter of fact, I'm currently in the process of putting together a new build and I'm most definitely not cheaping out on fast SSDs and RAM.

But I'm asking myself if there is room for Synchron Strings on this new system. Because even though it's a system that is tailored to and prepared for heavy lifting - there has to be a point in doing so. The costs and benefits have to be at some kind of justifiable ratio. But by the time the legati for the other sections are done, we're probably be talking about 250+ GB (!!!) of disk space for the standard library alone, while not offering anything I can't do with a 32 GB library, perhaps even less. That's where I need to start questioning things.

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 18:34
by Pixelpoet1985
Joined on Fri, Dec 23 2016, Germany, Posts 238

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post
It's not bad. It should be within a sophisticated libraries' repertoire. But the problem with Synchron Strings legato isn't the characteristics. There seems to be something inherently odd, maybe even off in the scripting and/or editing. It's not that is sounds "different", it doesn't sound or behave quite "right".

Thanks, your answer helped a bit understanding. :)

I noticed that, too. There seems nearly no hearable transition at all compared to e. g. Orchestral Strings. Even those could be a bit longer, in my opinion. I think Synchron Player will fix this. I still keep on citing those "innovative algorithms" over and over again. But re-invention? When they are only referring to velocity layers and their new recording procedure, than I'm disappointed.

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 20:12
by sururick
Joined on Mon, Aug 18 2008, Posts 32

No portamento? :( WIll they possibly add it in via an update?

Posted on Sun, Dec 31 2017 23:26
by dterry
Joined on Thu, Jan 30 2003, Posts 42

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post
@dterry, I really don't think that the point of a multi-mic library is to not use them. I could also save system ressources by not using half of the articulations. Or using Violins 1 only. You get the point.

Generally, with multi-mic libraries, I don't think that using a single mic position is good or desirable most of the time. Not with Spitfire, not with Orchestral Tools, Cinematic Studio series OR Synchron.

No, the articulations single-sections analogy isn't valid here - two very different tradeoffs. 

Of course the point of multi-mic is to provide options, but it doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't use a single mic if needed, or if multiple mics simply are not necessary.   I'm not sure what you are suggesting VSL give up to allow you to run all articulations and mics.  Velocity layers make a noticeable difference when using velocity crossfade via cc fader.  How much RAM are you trying to fit this into?

I would think anyone buying libraries with these options would be well aware of the need to configure systems, and mixing options, to make use of them, or be willing to compromise.  Surely users don't think they can run a full Synchron orchestra template on a 32G, or even 64G PC with all mic options.  I wouldn't consider building a new system with less than 128G at this point, even before Synchron. 

Fwiw, OT's Berlin strings work fine with a single mic, if you use the right one, or have the score mixed by a score mixer (done that before).  What sounds good "out of the box" doesn't necessarily work as well in a mix, especially with other libraries in a complex score, at least when these are not just for mockup reference. 

To bring something positive back to this thread - Synchron is a new standard, at the very least for the surround/Atmos options. Every library requires some work and skill to get convincing results, if you write for the music instead of the samples.  There isn't much VSL, EW, OT, Spitfire or anyone else can do to change that. 

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