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How to improve Synchron Strings I?
Last post Fri, Aug 17 2018 by daviddln, 114 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Jul 29 2018 21:47
by noldar12
Joined on Thu, Dec 04 2008, Posts 582

At this point, I rarely post.  I am more of a church composer/hobby user, not a "high end" user.  My budget for samples is very, very limited.  Up to now I have lived in the land of VSL.  What is currently going on concerns me.  On the one hand, there is that massive negative/hostile thread against SyS on "that other forum."  Here, there appears to be - at times - an almost equally hostile thread in favor of it.  To someone who has to spend money on samples with great care, neither thread is helpful.

At one time I was a participant in the Sonar community.  As things spiraled downward, negative reactions towards any criticism increased significantly.  Fahl5 may prove to be right, I don't know.  What I do know is that when companies fail to take justified complaints (note the use of "justified") seriously, those companies tend to suffer financially, as the market reacts.  To me, there is no other company out there that has been able to do what VSL has done.

But so far SyS seems more of a "miss" than a "hit."  That is not a direct conern.  No company is perfect.  The issue is how VSL will handle the criticism/concerns.  Following the "Cakewalk/Sonar" model in that regard would not be wise.  There are solid reasons to hope that SyS will reach VSL standards, given VSL's track record.  As for now, if I were to purchase another VSL string library, it would likely be AP strings.  SyS seems to much of a question mark at this point.

Posted on Sun, Jul 29 2018 23:58
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

Fahl5, 2 totally unrelated things.

Thats why the one thing does not belong in a thread which is dedecated to a completly different subject. And it is nothing "arrogant" just to mention that fact.

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

One can easily express himself without sounding arrogant.

But obviously as many very passionate postings poor in arguemnts demonstrates:

It is again much easier to become personal insinuative, and slam someone who has just another opinion as "arrogant" and with "+1" and likewise completly meaninghless argunmentfree and substanceless comments , than to seriously answer concrete arguments. with concrete arguements as I have done.

Neither Simon nor Pixelpoet answered on any argument. That is sad, because it make their criticism appear being more or less emotion, without any concret intention to really improve anything at all.

Did you really think that VSL deserve that kind of discussion?

Again I am very very interested to hear from someone who complains here at least one exsample where he just shows with concrete "results" how any of the nearly 20 peices I posted here made with Synchron Strings would be made any better with any other Library.

And dont pretend now it would be "arrogant" to ask you for "results" while you pretend thats all what counts! Either you are able to or you should be more cautious in your statements. That is just fair.

@nolder

I am very confindent, that VSL will adress what ever serious and justified demands are discussed. But therefor the best way to reach that, if one think anything might be improved, to argue concrete to come to the most prezise description of what is needed. So if realy anyone intends to improve anything, there is no other way than a constructive discussion and argumentation.

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 00:31
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5405

this post is deleted - no longer interested

Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 00:35
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1978

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Again I am very very interested to hear from someone who complains here at least one exsample where he just shows with concrete "results" how any of the nearly 20 peices I posted here made with Synchron Strings would be made any better with any other Library.

I don't know, all libraries have their strenth and weaknesses and need some adjustments and time to get the most of them, however, I would post less pieces and work more on each one, there is room for improvment on the programming side alone, and I mean this in a constructive way. It's like you're playing Blackjack and hoping your next hand will the winning hand. Also, before saying you have that Hollywood sound, let others be the judge of that first, no? That comes off as quite pretentious. 

Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 07:41
by mh-7635
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Posts 188

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Again I am very very interested to hear from someone who complains here at least one exsample where he just shows with concrete "results" how any of the nearly 20 peices I posted here made with Synchron Strings would be made any better with any other Library.

I don't know, all libraries have their strenth and weaknesses and need some adjustments and time to get the most of them

 

Guy is right here imv. The best musical results with all current libraries on the market are surely to be had with a mixture...horses for courses..as they say. I don't see any reason for being purist in this regard.

Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 08:02
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 350

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Veola Go to Quoted Post
I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib? Don't you compare to other libs or listen to recordings? Don't you want something new, improved or groundbreaking from a new lib?

@fahl5, I know that people can get lost in the programming and forget to use their ears and emotions to judge the whole piece. No offence, but you seem a bit like this, pushing as a many pieces through as possible.

Guy Bacos got some demos on the product page, BUT the ones that sound acceptable are the ones layered with other instruments. Its basically covering up the problems of the lib.


The Bee  (Not layered)

 

This is very nice Guy - the violin shorts work very well for this. Still in a real recording, there would be more intonation "problems" in the attacks, which would add more life and realism. They are too spot on. But the clarity is really amazing. On cellos and basses there is quite a bit of a machine gun effect going on. Probably because every recording is so "perfect". But it is not an easy thing to pull off by any library.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 08:10
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 350

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

Fahl5, 2 totally unrelated things.

Thats why the one thing does not belong in a thread which is dedecated to a completly different subject. And it is nothing "arrogant" just to mention that fact.

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

One can easily express himself without sounding arrogant.

But obviously as many very passionate postings poor in arguemnts demonstrates:

It is again much easier to become personal insinuative, and slam someone who has just another opinion as "arrogant" and with "+1" and likewise completly meaninghless argunmentfree and substanceless comments , than to seriously answer concrete arguments. with concrete arguements as I have done.

Neither Simon nor Pixelpoet answered on any argument. That is sad, because it make their criticism appear being more or less emotion, without any concret intention to really improve anything at all.

Again I am very very interested to hear from someone who complains here at least one exsample where he just shows with concrete "results" how any of the nearly 20 peices I posted here made with Synchron Strings would be made any better with any other Library.

I don't have time to do a massive mockup like yours, but you should only have to look around on the different library producers websites and listen to demos. If you can't hear that a lot of that sounds way more realistic than what you have pulled off... well, then I don't think we'll get anywhere anyway.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 08:59
by Arsenal
Joined on Sat, Nov 26 2016, Posts 16

Okay, even though this is a discussion on "how to improve" and I did refrain to voice my opinion because of some really hostility here (and on the "other forum") but here it is:

 

First of all I have the hope that the all the discussion and even the anger towards other members is simply due to the fact that everyone just wants the best and get the most out of the product which seemed to be so great. (I still get excited by the marketing text and promises that were made by VSL, well somehow...)
There is a lot of passion involved.

I did pre-order SyS. I still somehow trust VSL as I love their products (even some parts of Sys Strings I ) and was always very happy with their support.
Even tough I could be bashed for also saying it: I am dissappointed by Synchron Strings I but I still have high hopes (maybe because I have to and dont want to move on by selling it and going with another company. Also I am not sure anyone would buy it except for 50% off as the reputation of the product and VSL as a whole seems by reading this forum and "the other forum" to have suffered a lot. Thats just an observation)

 

Back to improvement:

Yes, I used Sys a lot, i mean Really a lot, even in "real" projects, both with VIP and Synchron Player. Yes, one gets better results with spending time on working with them... still there are a lot flaws and there is a lot of effort needed from the user (which is okay, but a lot of times it feels like fixing not polishing)

It is really hard to suggest what could be improved, especially with VSL not participating in discussing the topic and not knowing what Can be improved/they are willing to do. (It would suck to spend even more money for a second edition, and no - for now i wont buy SyS Chamber) - So lets mix suggestions with wishlist:

- If the legato samples cant be improved / more added, I hope that some additional programming/scripting can help the functionality of the legato. Right now - no matter what anyone here has tried - the legato is subtle. Most of us hoped for more options especially at this price point. Maybe adding a time stretched folder could also help?

- I sometimes hear strange background noise in some samples. Maybe the samples could be reworked?

- The violins are indeed very piercing if not handled correct (which means corrected). Using the built-in mic eq or the Vienna Suite did help, but still it is strange that the whole ensemble somehow doesnt seem to be that well balanced as it seemed. 

- Yes, the sound and behaviour is not very expressive and lively, but it seems like this is on purpose and this kind of sound Has its purpose. Layering and lots of CC riding did help when I wanted more emotive string sound.

- Yes, the shorts are great - We all hear that. The Sfz is okay, but I still dont get my head around about that whole stacked approach.

- Synchron Player is a ongoing process of development, I get it. Still: Please integrate more features that VIP already had, humanization being one thing.

- I dont like that we dont get real statements from VSL which means not knowing where we are heading at or what their views are. Especially after the debacle of communication the post-poned proper release was. 

  

I am still trying to improve my workflow and approach with using Synchron Strings I as I still need to put in a lot of effort into working with them for even making them sound allright.

 

There are a lot of of positive things about this library, but a lot of bad things - Every library has its flaws, we get it.

VSL set the bar really high with their previous products, legacy and with their marketing. 

I know I am there are a lot of things that were already said, but lets hope for the best : )))

Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 19:47
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1978

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

The Bee  (Not layered)

This is very nice Guy - the violin shorts work very well for this. Still in a real recording, there would be more intonation "problems" in the attacks, which would add more life and realism. They are too spot on. But the clarity is really amazing. On cellos and basses there is quite a bit of a machine gun effect going on. Probably because every recording is so "perfect". But it is not an easy thing to pull off by any library.

Sure, it could be looser here and there, and with less preciness on the tuning. Maybe an alternative version with the addition of synchron chamber strings might be good. This way, you could appreciate the excellent clarity of synchron strings while having some leeway with other aspects. 

Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 20:50
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5405

I listened to this on a good monitor system and it sounded perfect, and there was no machine gun effect whatsoever.  The issue of it being too perfect didn't strike me at all, and I am a maniac for imprecise timing. 
But maybe I was distracted by the great composition.  That tends to happen with Guy's pieces even though they are the best "demos" (the word doesn't really do them justice!)

Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 20:51
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

@Guy Bacos OK I just try to make it short.

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post


I don't know, all libraries have their strenth and weaknesses and need some adjustments and time to get the most of them, however, I would post less pieces and work more on each one,



Yes that is true is seems to me as if. you have had posted less "Demos" in the last time not that frequently than before when working with previous VSL-Libraries..

I am not sure who asked you how much you like to programm or not and what this might help to improve Synchron Strings

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post


Also, before saying you have that Hollywood sound, let others be the judge of that first, no? That comes off as quite pretentious.



While I would not let others judge before I decide what I like or not (presumptuous Idea: should the forum members allow each others what they like to do or not???), it is at least true, that I would likewise be very sceptical if someone pretends he has "that Hollywood sound". Since for me Hollywood has simply no importants for my musical intentions. For me it only matters, if the result is able to enjoy of course not every body but at least some I honestly never understood the necessity of any of those buzzwords at all.

But I would also not insinuate that anyone other would have said something silly like that, when this would be so opbviously simply a dumb personal slaming lie. Especially if the one (like me for instance) has never even once wanted to do anything in any relation with hollywood at all, since his musical interest is as all know concentrated nearly completly on european music.

This is just kind of superficial and personal insinmuating hostile kind of discussion this forum does not deserve. So do not try to debase in that way those, whose arguments you can not answer more seriously.

However I am always very interested to learn from all who are able to do what I do in any better way. So just show me your version and I am glad to learn from everything (let it be a better Library as some pretend, or a better programming as others pretend) that allows to discuss based on a real "result" what might be improved



@Arsenal

Originally Posted by: Arsenal Go to Quoted Post

It is really hard to suggest what could be improved, especially with VSL not participating in discussing the topic and not knowing what Can be improved.


I think it would be not that hard. You cant and must not do the job of the product development. Imho all what helps is, if you (as you already did in your detaild posting) try to describe as concrete as possible, your problem. And Yes I still believe it might help to share your "results", what still helps to make more understandable, what excactly you wnat to be improved.
I would only criticise those who more or less avoid to become concrete and to refer to concrete resutls and precise defined concrete problems. As long statements just remain completly general, no one can really work on that in any way. In so far I think your posting belong to the most constructive postings here.

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 20:58
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1978

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

So do not try to debase in that way those, whose arguments you can not answer more seriously.

 

Oh yes teacher!

Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 21:32
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

So do not try to debase in that way those, whose arguments you can not answer more seriously.

 

Oh yes teacher!

Ok you exactly did the same thing again. This thread is not meant for your aggressive personal polemics but about how to improve the Synchron Strings.

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 22:16
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1978

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

So do not try to debase in that way those, whose arguments you can not answer more seriously.

 

Oh yes teacher!

Ok you exactly did the same thing again. This thread is not meant for your aggressive personal polemics but about how to improve the Synchron Strings.

 

fahl5, ever heard of "projection"?

Posted on Mon, Jul 30 2018 23:46
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5405

"This thread is not meant for your aggressive personal polemics but about how to improve the Synchron Strings." - fahl5

This is incredible! I tried to be nice to this guy but he has gone off the deep end.  

fahl5 - every single thing you ever write is arrogant, self-centered egotism.  You pretend to be talking about music, but every time you are posting here you disparage anyone who irritates you as "beginner" or an idiot.  

You are utterly incapable of talking on an equal basis to Guy Bacos who OBLITERATES YOU as a MIDI programmer and musician.  You can't even come close.  And on top of that he is a great composer and YOU DON'T EVEN COMPOSE.     Stop acting like you are god's gift to music.  There are people here who are so far beyond you that you have no concept.  You are an amateur, right?  Does somebody pay you for that website you say is the greatest thing in sampling in your signature?  Do you get paid?  Guess what - the other people here do get paid, to create music.  They are professionals and you are an amateur with a big mouth.  

I am saying this not as a typical internet over-the-top statement, but as a serious, simple statement of an obvious fact - you are mentally ill.  In your brain no one exists except as a tool for your ego.  You are in fact psychopathic, because that is the definition of "psychopath" - someone who doesn't essentially care about anyone else but who simply uses them for a self-centered purpose. That is you precisely.  I actually have never encountered anyone as disgustingly egotistical as you - on the internet or off.

Now start with your sarcasm, long-winded endless diatribe against me, accompanied by stupid little emoticons and fractured, abuse-of-language sentences.  I don't give a rat's ass about you or your responses.  You are poison.

 

VSL - I am sorry for this post and I won't write any more, but this guy is insulting everyone on this Forum on a regular basis.  

Posted on Tue, Jul 31 2018 00:57
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 473

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

"This thread is not meant for your aggressive personal polemics but about how to improve the Synchron Strings." - fahl5

This is incredible! I tried to be nice to this guy but he has gone off the deep end.  

fahl5 - every single thing you ever write is arrogant, self-centered egotism.  You pretend to be talking about music, but every time you are posting here you disparage anyone who irritates you as "beginner" or an idiot.  

You are utterly incapable of talking on an equal basis to Guy Bacos who OBLITERATES YOU as a MIDI programmer and musician.  You can't even come close.  And on top of that he is a great composer and YOU DON'T EVEN COMPOSE.     Stop acting like you are god's gift to music.  There are people here who are so far beyond you that you have no concept.  You are an amateur, right?  Does somebody pay you for that website you say is the greatest thing in sampling in your signature?  Do you get paid?  Guess what - the other people here do get paid, to create music.  They are professionals and you are an amateur with a big mouth.  

I am saying this not as a typical internet over-the-top statement, but as a serious, simple statement of an obvious fact - you are mentally ill.  In your brain no one exists except as a tool for your ego.  You are in fact psychopathic, because that is the definition of "psychopath" - someone who doesn't essentially care about anyone else but who simply uses them for a self-centered purpose. That is you precisely.  I actually have never encountered anyone as disgustingly egotistical as you - on the internet or off.

Now start with your sarcasm, long-winded endless diatribe against me, accompanied by stupid little emoticons and fractured, abuse-of-language sentences.  I don't give a rat's ass about you or your responses.  You are poison.

 

VSL - I am sorry for this post and I won't write any more, but this guy is insulting everyone on this Forum on a regular basis.  

I raise a pint to you, Bill.  Strongly worded, but absolutely necessary (after years of ongoing drama).  Thank you for having the courage to say this.  Now, hopefully, this ends the drama and we can begin a fresh chapter, where musicians and hobbyists encourage, educate, and empower each other to greater success.  Cheers to all those who share their talents and knowledge in a welcoming manner here on the VSL forum!

www.dearvillainmusic.com - music for live performance by David Carovillano

www.acclarion.ca - concert accordion & clarinet duo
Posted on Tue, Jul 31 2018 06:12
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 495
Tja, gestern noch der tolle Steffen. Und heute ist wieder alles anders. Denn heute fällt wieder mal auf ... du bist ja kein „echter Komponist“ ... etc. bla, bla
Du kannst hier noch so tolle Lieder posten, das wird sich nicht ändern. Die letzten 3 R. Fuchs Stücke sind ein grandioses Beispiel für das, was mit den SS1 und den SY Chambers machbar ist. Aber die Diskussion und die Kritik an den SS1 wird so oder so kein Ende nehmen. Und der Frust der Leute wird immer wieder auf dich einprasseln (weil sich von der VSL hier sowieso kein Mensch meldet)
Mal im erst ... warum machst du das mit? Wenn ich du wäre ... DIE KÖNNTEN MICH ALLE!
—Lurker-mode—
Posted on Tue, Jul 31 2018 07:34
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

@ LAJ

Originally Posted by: LAJ Go to Quoted Post

Mal im erst ... warum machst du das mit? Wenn ich du wäre ... DIE KÖNNTEN MICH ALLE!

Ich mache das ja gerade nicht mit. Ich teile einfach was ich mache und versuche die Diskussionen möglichst sachbezogen und möglichst wenig emotionsbezogen zu halten. Ich denke das hat VSL verdient die wirklich nach wie vor aussergewöhnliches Leisten. Aber ab einem gewissen Punkt hast du recht, ist das was die hier treiben wirklich nicht mehr mein Problem. Aber da ich unsere Pappenheimer ja kenne beeindruckt mich derlei auch nicht so sehr, als dass es mich von irgendetwas abhalten würde.

P.S.: ich fürchte was die am meisten wurmt, ist wohl das Gefühl, dass ich das Komponieren zumindest so wie es heute von vielen (hier) betrieben wird wirklich schon lange nicht mehr unbedingt als die interessanteste Herausforderung in der Musik ansehe. O Gott gleich kommt wieder der Arroganzvorwurf falls einer von denen des Deutschen mächtig ist.

Aber ist doch lustig, was für ein Gegacker im Hühnerstall aufkommt, wenn man einfach dann und wann mal an das Thema des Threads erinnert.

@ non german speaking members

OK Folks thanks to the most intellectual brilliant and constructive contributions from Acclarion, William and Guy Bacos we all know now excactly what should be improved in Synchron Strings. Great Discussion! That is the way only real 'Proffessionals' (or how ever you call those who still depend on getting payed for what they do) are able to discuss!

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
Posted on Tue, Jul 31 2018 08:15
by kamil
Joined on Mon, Feb 23 2015, Posts 23
Ffahl5 ... Ik denk niet dat er reden is voor dit debat.

Google translate 😜.


"I do not think there is any reason for this debate to be so."
With my all respect to you all.

Regards ,
Yasir
Posted on Tue, Jul 31 2018 08:26
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Hall One, Posts 953

Originally Posted by: kamil Go to Quoted Post
Ffahl5 ... Ik denk niet dat er reden is voor dit debat.

Google translate 😜.


"I do not think there is any reason for this debate to be so."
With my all respect to you all.

Regards ,
Yasir

You are absolutly right

http://klassik-resampled.de ... 3648 mp3 with a whole Week (=7 Days /=171 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries

http://synchron.12sf.de
a) ...Synchron-Strings explored in 40 mp3 with more than four hours of complete and ambitious scores from 19th, 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Strings.

b) ...Synchron-Steinway explored in 48 mp3 with nearly three hours of complete and ambitious scores from 18th 19th 20th and 21th century produced with Synchron-Steinway.
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