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How to improve Synchron Strings I?
Last post Fri, Aug 17 2018 by daviddln, 114 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Jul 31 2018 17:05
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5640

It actually has nothing to do with music anymore. 

On a totally irrelevant note I wanted to say hello to Simon Raven and how much I have liked his music when I had the chance to hear it various places on the internet.  Really great demos but also memorable purely as music. 

 

O.K., sorry to interrupt the hostility and insults.  I'll get out of the way.   

Posted on Tue, Jul 31 2018 18:23
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 355

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

It actually has nothing to do with music anymore. 

On a totally irrelevant note I wanted to say hello to Simon Raven and how much I have liked his music when I had the chance to hear it various places on the internet.  Really great demos but also memorable purely as music. 

 

O.K., sorry to interrupt the hostility and insults.  I'll get out of the way.   

 

Thanks, William :)

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Tue, Jul 31 2018 19:31
by agitato
Joined on Mon, Jun 22 2015, Posts 407

Originally Posted by: William Go to Quoted Post

On a totally irrelevant note I wanted to say hello to Simon Raven and how much I have liked his music when I had the chance to hear it various places on the internet.  Really great demos but also memorable purely as music. 

 

+1

I first heard Simon Ravn's music around 2002, when I was just learning about sampling technology, and was quite in awe of the realism and quality of his music productions. It was a surprise seeing his name here I went back and listened to some of his recent music....Here are a couple of nice pieces:

http://simonravn.com/media/Milo-TheInventor.mp3

http://simonravn.com/media/BB-HomeAlone.mp3

Sorry, completely off topic.

Anand Kumar
Posted on Tue, Jul 31 2018 22:42
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Ok and now we finally all know "how to improve Synchron Strings":

1) bashing VSL for their Product

2) bashing those who dont want to bash the product but prefer to argue,

3) bashsing the whole thread

And everybody feels good than .....until he wake up again and everything stars again

Great 'discussion' and really great very "professional" intelligent and open minded community ! Wow!

Lets continue like that tomorrow ... ad infinitum

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 00:51
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1995

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Ok and now we finally all know "how to improve Synchron Strings":

1) bashing VSL for their Product

 

A side from all the ego trip posts, not a single person in this thread has bashed VSL products, you have a wild imagination fahl5, everybody here have all brought constructive criticism and appreciation to synchron because they believe in VSL and their dedication to improving their products, and I do mean everybody. People like William has been great supporters from day 1 and is still the greatest supporter of VSL, and many others as well in this thread, so cool it down with your preaching. 

Conctructive criticism does not mean bashing. Lean the difference.

Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 08:10
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Hi GuyI am impressed about your ability to really use nearly every posting you contribute here for another aggression,. or did you seriously believe that insinuateing "egotrips" of other members is what makes you to the nice guy??? Sorry its more or less another prove for the opposite.But let us stay with your courageous statement about the constructicve character of everybodies contribution:

Originally Posted by: Guy Bacos Go to Quoted Post

....not a single person in this thread has bashed VSL products, you have a wild imagination fahl5, everybody here have all brought constructive criticism and appreciation to synchron because they believe in VSL and their dedication to improving their products, and I do mean everybody.

Conctructive criticism does not mean bashing. Lean the difference.

Sorry I am such an stupid member, that I really believe Constructive criticism would ever has anything to do with concrete suggestions to improve something.

I just want to remind you some highlights of what you called "everybodxy have brought constructive criticism and appreciation"

Originally Posted by: HBen Go to Quoted Post


VSL never replies to any post that requests of improving or upgrading the content of Synchron Strings I, and people are keep trying to make demos that sounds synthy and fake to me.

...

Synchron Strings I, I would say, just forget it.



Originally Posted by: HBen Go to Quoted Post


The biggest mistake is that VSL should not launch pre-order mode for Synchron String I based on its false advertisement, and thereafter no voucher compensation for unhappy customers. I could use that money to purchase other libraries instead of buying this one. It's really a lot of money for a single string library that does not deliver many of essential contents.


Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post


Tbh, what stings more is not the fact that I find the library not worthy of using, but exactly that in some ways, what happened here kind of feels like a breach of trust. I always associated VSL with meticulous quality, a no-nonsense, no-shortcuts approach, innovation. I feel that SyS betrays those expectations.

So much about the library seems fibbed, band-aid, makeshift, cheapened out. ....


Originally Posted by: HBen Go to Quoted Post


Well, I'd love to hear some replies from VSL. Otherwise, this will become another edition of story about the Emperor's New Clothes, only VSL and a small portion of people think this product is good enough on the market.

It's not a good attitude to ignore customer's feedback, other companies would listen to customers and do some improvements, but it seems that is not the case here. Sad.




Originally Posted by: Pixelpoet1985 Go to Quoted Post


...The competition has introduced way more advanced features and new innovative approaches over the years. Synchron Strings still follows the same patch structure as in the older libraries, disappointing for me.

It's their first wet string library, so I only want that they admit that something went wrong or that they expected more themselves or that they keep on improving this library. I would totally understand it, because it's a new way of recording and editing and they have to gather new experiences as well.

.... But if they don't care about our feedback, sorry, but than they have to face the truth. I think they know it, I can't imagine that Synchron Strings sold well. ....



Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post


But but... it's the results and the sound that counts. And as countless have already pointed out, Synchron Strings is off. Very off. It sounds lifeless and thin, generally speaking. There are good aspects of it; I like the clarity of it, but sadly when the tone is thin and lifeless it doesn't help much.



Originally Posted by: Veola Go to Quoted Post
I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib? Don't you compare to other libs or listen to recordings? Don't you want something new, improved or groundbreaking from a new lib?
...

Guy Bacos got some demos on the product page, BUT the ones that sound acceptable are the ones layered with other instruments. Its basically covering up the problems of the lib.

VSL told me that Synchron Strings I is the first and many more will come. So what? We have to wait for longer and spend more money to get something they promised LAST YEAR?

You guys are basically saying this lib cannot be improved by us?
Is VI-Control the best site to resell it?



Originally Posted by: Pixelpoet1985 Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Veola Go to Quoted Post
I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib? Don't you compare to other libs or listen to recordings? Don't you want something new, improved or groundbreaking from a new lib?


+1


Sorry I read many general complains and little or often no realy constructive suggestions, no real attempt at least to make the alledged problem much more precise than"And as countless have already pointed out, Synchron Strings is off. Very off. It sounds lifeless and thin," or "I just cannot understand how people can say there is nothing wrong with this lib?"

Is that how sounds everybodies "constructive criticism and appreciation to synchron because they believe in VSL "

If you really dont expect anything more than that from a constructive discussion, OK than now I have "learned" what kind of discussion you think are "constructiv"

To be honest when it comes to you I did not found neither any attempt to describe any possible problem of Synchron Strings nor any attempt to discuss any arguments brought by others about any problems or possible improvements.

Just take a look on what many of your postings here has as their very personal major topic that you criticise and than ask yourself what kind of "trip" would you call that.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 08:29
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 355

Wow, Steffen, you really don't have any worklife do you. Way too much time on your hands obviously. You really should get a job. Or maybe go back and stare proudly at your degree diploma and render some more useless classical pieces. Your presence here is just getting more and more embarrassing.

What VSL should do to "improve" SyS is frankly re-record 80% of it. But they could do it at 40-50% of the time spent on the original and get a much better library.

They should:

- Record fewer dynamic layers. Half as many would do, the proof is in SyS that all those layers don't pay off.

- Record fewer different vibrato types. Non-vib and "espressivo" would be enough. Nobody likes the standard vibrato in the library it seems. Also, you don't need to do as many non-vib dynamic layers as you do vibrato. 3 nonvib, 4-5 vib would be plenty enough.

- Record less precise staccatos. And do both staccatos and spiccatos for better flexibility.

- Rehearse a little music with the musicians before recording the samples. And tell them to carry that into the samples as good as they can and not care about being too perfect, but more being musical. A little coaching should help on the sound, get more life into the samples.

- Then there is the sound. That is a tough one. The room sounds like it does I guess. But there are quite some ugly resonance going on. Don't remember exactly where but typically you get problems in the lower mid-mid end from 500-1200hz. Violins generally have some harsh stuff going on at 1500+3500hz but that's managable with EQ so I wouldn't focus on that. I would see if the room needs treatment to handle the lower frequencies.

That could be a "Synchron Strings - reworked". Still a huge undertaking but would take less than 50% of the time of the original library to do. That is the only way SyS will have a chance to become a great string library; doing re-recordings. Sorry, no way around it. And that probably won't happen - not for the next 5 years+. They might decide to go back and record another string library, but I am sure they won't spend so many resources to re-do and fix SyS 1.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 08:35
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

Wow, Steffen, you really don't have any worklife do you. Way too much time on your hands obviously. You really should get a job. Or maybe go back and stare proudly at your degree diploma and render some more useless classical pieces. Your presence here is just getting more and more embarrassing.

Bravo another splendid example of "constructive criticism and appreciation to synchron" this is so full of topic related pure facts and so free of ugly and aggressive personal insinuations, that I understand, that you are the one who really can help to make this world a better place. Wow!

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 08:39
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 355

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

Wow, Steffen, you really don't have any worklife do you. Way too much time on your hands obviously. You really should get a job. Or maybe go back and stare proudly at your degree diploma and render some more useless classical pieces. Your presence here is just getting more and more embarrassing.

Bravo another splendid example of "constructive criticism and appreciation to synchron" this is so full of topic related pure facts and so free of ugly and aggressive personal insinuations, that I understand, that you are the one who really can help to make this world a better place. Wow!

 

I actually added to the post just after posting. But of course you are hovering over this like a hawk. But there you have it: My constructive criticism.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 08:47
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Ok I understand top summarize your constructive suggestions "how to improve Synchroin Strings" you say

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

That is the only way SyS will have a chance to become a great string library; doing re-recordings. Sorry, no way around it. And that probably won't happen - not for the next 5 years+.

OK that is really a very good and construictive suggestion "how to improve Synchron strings" full of exactly the "appreciation to synchron" Guy has found in literally "everybodys" contribution here.

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

I actually added to the post just after posting. But of course you are hovering over this like a hawk. But there you have it: My constructive criticism.

Still one question: You kept your completely offtopic and aggressive personal insinuation against me for exactly what constructive reason?

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 08:59
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

fahl5, it's not our fault that you're obviously incapable of reading comprehension, amongst other things. Your whole act here is incredibly cheap. All of the posts you stupidly picked apart and selectively quoted actually contained pointed and concrete criticism.

You're picking quotes out of context on purpose. Your mindset is that of an 14 year old child arguing on the internet. You're the only thing that's wrong in this thread. You're the only person who keeps coming back and pollutes the forum with more useless "contributions", and this whole thread would be 300% more constructive without your pathetic meddling and confrontational nonsense.

None of us here has any interest in arguing with each other. Our opinions on specific aspects of the library might differ, but none of that would stand in the way of a civil discussion. Without your transgressions, no one would be arguing here and you wouldn't see a single out-of-line post. Actually everyone's totally fed up with the bickering, but you wont stop, because William is 100% right - you're the type of sociopath that enjoys this kind of stuff.

You're ruining it for everybody, and you're making this forum an ugly place. This observation alone probably makes you glee deep down inside. You should be banned. Period. The only reason it's not happening is because you probably bought every VSL product under the sun. And it just shows how much the ignore function is needed.

Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 09:05
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Ok and this is how it sounds when Jimmy Hellfire tries to contribute to the discussion "how to improve Synchron Strings" in a topic related and constructive way:

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post

fahl5, it's not our fault that you're obviously incapable of reading comprehension, amongst other things. Your whole act here is incredibly cheap. All of the posts you stupidly picked apart and selectively quoted actually contained pointed and concrete criticism.

You're picking quotes out of context on purpose. Your mindset is that of an 14 year old child arguing on the internet. You're the only thing that's wrong in this thread. You're the only person who keeps coming back and pollutes the forum with more useless "contributions", and this whole thread would be 300% more constructive without your pathetic meddling and confrontational nonsense.

None of us here has any interest in arguing with each other. Our opinions on specific aspects of the library might differ, but none of that would stand in the way of a civil discussion. Without your transgressions, no one would be arguing here and you wouldn't see a single out-of-line post. Actually everyone's totally fed up with the bickering, but you wont stop, because William is 100% right - you're the type of sociopath that enjoys this kind of stuff.

You're ruining it for everybody, and you're making this forum an ugly place. This observation alone probably makes you glee deep down inside. You should be banned. Period. The only reason it's not happening is because you probably bought every VSL product under the sun. And it just shows how much the ignore function is needed.

Btw.: nice to hear that William and you are good friends again we all remember well how wonderful constructive your discussions with William always have been.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 09:33
by LAJ
Joined on Sun, Dec 13 2009, Posts 538
Originally Posted by: kamil Go to Quoted Post
Ffahl5 ... Ik denk niet dat er reden is voor dit debat.



Prutser.

Shiba Inu & Doge ... to the 🌙🚀🚀

Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 10:29
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 355

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Still one question: You kept your completely offtopic and aggressive personal insinuation against me for exactly what constructive reason?

I am not gonna feed you - call your mum.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 11:30
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 311

 

A last comment on-topic, before taking a pause:

- I think VSL product management and development team is a very strong and educated one. I suppose they are perfectly aware of the limits and unexpected issues of the project. Anyway it's a pity we got the technical debate polluted by human factors, because our feedback should be very useful: every developer is abitually self-indulgent with his own baby, and even when the  issues are technically well known, still the customers feedback helps to prioritize and sort the space for improvement.

- the overal sound quality of the result, has unfortunately distracted the attention from the other interesting components of the Sinchron Strings project: the player and the patch structure. I think the idea and the software are powerful and good (e.g. the tree structure and the automatic coherence of articulations grouped by "playing style" etc.).

- I think some of the recording concepts were also brilliant and were providing immediate benefit: the dynamic uniformity and the rich variations managed by scripts. I suspect, as other did, that unfortunately some of the "news" like the auto-gain control or the wet-samples processing were creating artifacts the sound engineers and developers were not expecting and are not yet mastering. It's definitely the reason for the long development time and the delays. I still remember it was the very same with Dimension strings, and not all the issues with the samples of Dimension were finally fixed, but at least the VI Pro player and the final patches of Dimension strings arrived to the standard we all know, respect and love.

- Last but not least, I suppose, from some feedback of developers, and from the official communication of VSL marketing, that the hidden problem was and probably still is also human resources constrain: even working day and night, the amount of work the VSL team was facing with new projects and productions seems to be overwelming. I hope time will help to settle down the huge amount of news and refine the software and samples as they always did in the past.

Crossing fingers and looking forward.

Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 12:48
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 355

... and fahl5, stop sending me PMs. Not gonna read or respond to them.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 13:12
by Acclarion
Joined on Sat, Aug 15 2015, Canada, Eh!, Posts 554
Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

... and fahl5, stop sending me PMs. Not gonna read or respond to them.

I don't get PMs from him, but I did get blocked from his website. Lol
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 13:35
by JimmyHellfire
Joined on Tue, Dec 24 2013, Posts 335

To be serious ... let's keep it "subject-based".

Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 13:52
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

 A last comment on-topic, ...:

Thank you, thats just the way the discussion could be made constructive.

I like the respect you show for the VSL-Guys. and consent this is defenitly a good starting point

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

- the overal sound quality of the result, has unfortunately distracted the attention

Yes I consent with others that this aspect is worth to discuss. I personally am not Tone-engineer enough to judge what can be done without recording. But I think it might be worth to reflect how the user can achieve more instantaneously the warmer soundquality some members her have asked for. If there is any way to configure the settings to achieve that result and also a way to make this result the first one gets when loading the patches before any individual tweaks are necessary, than it would be worth to search a solution for the requests about the sound.

as I already suggested earlier to become a bit more concrete in this aspect one might perhaps think about the "default settings"

  • of the EQ's in the Mixerchannels '(which currently seem to me emphazie only the high ranges, while they reduce nearly all the the lower and mid ranges)
  • the Legato might prevent from inappropriate selection if would be by default set to auto-speed
  • Presumably the Regular Vibrato is for the most regulare usages the more appropriate one than the lyrical which seem to me better for low dynamics and slow movements.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

from the other interesting components of the Sinchron Strings project: the player and the patch structure. I think the idea and the software are powerful and good (e.g. the tree structure and the automatic coherence of articulations grouped by "playing style" etc.).

- I think some of the recording concepts were also brilliant and were providing immediate benefit: the dynamic uniformity and the rich variations managed by scripts.

I fully consent in this aspect. And it is imho worth to keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

I suspect, as other did, that unfortunately some of the "news" like the auto-gain control or the wet-samples processing were creating artifacts the sound engineers and developers were not expecting and are not yet mastering. It's definitely the reason for the long development time and the delays. I still remember it was the very same with Dimension strings, and not all the issues with the samples of Dimension were finally fixed, but at least the VI Pro player and the final patches of Dimension strings arrived to the standard we all know, respect and love.

I again like the very constructive attitude towards Problems like  that and do consent again completly.

in my humble opinion I think there are several articulation types which are wortth to be added or  completed in further editions:

  • Sordini,
  • sul pont,
  • Harmonics,
  • less extreme long Cresc. and decresc.,
  • pfp in different durations,
  • more sustained Sfz,
  • another more passionate Vibrato type like we know from Appasionata

It no surprise for anyone here: I think it is defenitly worth to continue improviong and expanding this series as it is reasonable for the users to give a feedback for the direction of this further development.  I hope following Fatis exsample we will finaly get on the right path to support the VSL-Team with concrete Feedback and suggestions.  This is my contribution .

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Wed, Aug 01 2018 13:53
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: JimmyHellfire Go to Quoted Post

To be serious ... let's keep it "subject-based".

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
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