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Posted on Thu, Oct 04 2018 12:32
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

To continue with my Synchron-Striungs-Explorations here is one of the most demanding Orchestral Bravuras written in the 20th century.

The piece was commissioned in January 1941, to honor the centenary of the Vienna Philharmonic, which gave its premiere in Vienna, Großer Musikvereinsaal, 14 April 1942, (Wikipedia)

(You perhaps better listen first how the Vienna Philharmonic under Karl Böhm, or Casellas Compatrios from the RAI uinder Bruno Maderna have been able to realise this incredible challenging brilliant score from one of the most  importatn italian Piano-Virtuosos of the early 20th century. )

An interesting problem came up with Casellas Tempoadvice "Il tempo deve essere - secondo il grado di virtuosità dell' orchestra -  il piu veloce possibile..." OK My DAW has actually no limit for the tempo like that, but I decided to try to chose a tempo as fast as it seems to me stil as musical transparent and audible as possible, while this was still for the first and last movement even faster than the two most brilliant interpretations (Böhm+VPO and Maderna+RAI) are..

So have fun with this wonderful boisterous kind of music realised with VSL Synchron Strings (and other VSL-Libraries)

Alfredo Casella: Paganiniana op.65 Divertimento for Orchestra on themes of Paganini

I realised the I, II and IV Part with Synchron Strings, while the III. Part demanded exactly 14 Stringplayers (4 Violins, 4 Violas, 4 Celli, 2 Basses of which except the 2 basses all Instruments are written in their own System) which makes a very chambermusical reduced Stringsensemble, which could not be better realised than with Dimension Strings.

Again this is music you will scarcly hear done with any other existing Stringlibrary (nor from any middle-rate kind of orchestra or programmer) which I fear are all presumably more or less far from being as ready to cope with kind of stuff as I see the Synchron Strings are prepared to.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Thu, Oct 04 2018 13:49
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 292

 

It's a very interesting exercise, I like your choice of rare but colorfull orchestral scores, from less-known but skilled composers like Casella, one of the Italian masters of modern orchestration (I studied on his book in Conservatorio).

It's also an impressive programming effort, with some very nice segments, mostly with winds and percussions.

To be very honest I don't agree with several of your choices, and I will tell you why, but of course it's just a matter of personal taste and aim:

- I think you are always using a pretty excessive amount of reverb, and a very "digital, movie-soundtrack" one. In real Orchestral recordings you never find anything similar, and it detracts to the perception of realism, producing a first very artificial flavour. In addition it's confusing the lines in a wet jammy background noise, so the fast phrases are even more blurred.

- I don't get the point of doing it so fast... you say that's because you like to explore "the limits" of a score, but it's not realistic by definition, and it doesn't follow the Composer's request: he asks for the "fastest a real orchestra can play" not a machine gun sequencer: again I think it doesn't give to the fast phrases a good service, because they are not exposed in their beautiful elegance, but just quickly and roughly closed in a rush instead.

Last but not least, I don't understand your last statement about the exclusivity of this performance. Nothing is easier to produce than fast staccatos: it was already possible to do decent renditions 20 years ago with Advanced Orchestra or Myroslav Vitous Orchestra with fast staccatos, and today there is plenty of professional products doing it.

Yes Synchron do it very well, it's probably the best sound of the library, but sorry the real quality and difference is exposed by slow and lyrical phrases with natural ambience, not fast melt of staccato runs in hyper-wet reverb, covered by winds and percussions.

All the best, and keep the fine musicology approach.

Posted on Thu, Oct 04 2018 16:16
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

It's a very interesting exercise, I like your choice of rare but colorfull orchestral scores, from less-known but skilled composers like Casella, one of the Italian masters of modern orchestration (I studied on his book in Conservatorio).

It's also an impressive programming effort, with some very nice segments, mostly with winds and percussions.

Thank you for your kind and friendly reaction so far.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

To be very honest I don't agree with several of your choices, and I will tell you why, but of course it's just a matter of personal taste and aim:

- I think you are always using a pretty excessive amount of reverb, and a very "digital, movie-soundtrack" one. In real Orchestral recordings you never find anything similar, and it detracts to the perception of realism, producing a first very artificial flavour. In addition it's confusing the lines in a wet jammy background noise, so the fast phrases are even more blurred.

To prevent such misunderstandings I linked even the two most brilliant reciordings of the piece wich the VPO+ Karl Böhm who premiered the music and with Casellas (and your) compatriots Bruno Maderna and the RAI-Orchestra.

Both ambiances have significant more reverb blurring everything very much more. Sorry you better should have listened to the "real traditional recording" befor, if you dont know the composition enough..

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

- I don't get the point of doing it so fast... you say that's because you like to explore "the limits" of a score, but it's not realistic by definition, and it doesn't follow the Composer's request: he asks for the "fastest a real orchestra can play" not a machine gun sequencer: again I think it doesn't give to the fast phrases a good service, because they are not exposed in their beautiful elegance, but just quickly and roughly closed in a rush instead.

Again you should have listened to Karl Böhm and the VPO for whom the piece was written and whol premiered it. Their tempo does not differ that much for the first movement. But this is also true for the Recording with Maderna. Yes my interpretation is a couple of seconds shorter than both, but not at all in a way that makes any notable difference in the overall character of the interpretation, while it was of course much harder for the Sectionviolinists in the traditional recordings of the VPO or the RAI-Orchestra to keep that tempo that stable as the DAW does it, an d the poor traditional "real" Orchestra -Violinists are blurring it very often even with more or less audible difficulties of the intonation  and precision of the articulationm in that tempo.

As I proposed inform yourself better how a traditional Orchestra really is able to play that music. It is pretty hard stuff for them.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

Last but not least, I don't understand your last statement about the exclusivity of this performance. Nothing is easier to produce than fast staccatos: it was already possible to do decent renditions 20 years ago with Advanced Orchestra or Myroslav Vitous Orchestra with fast staccatos, and today there is plenty of professional products doing it.

Yes you are right if you think, that you dont understood really my point when you think I have stated anything about "the exclusivity of this performance". You should better read what I have written. I pointed out, that no other library will be ready to cope with the demands of this piece. And yes it contribute to the great abilities of this libray for such Projects that the shorts do have a more convincing roundrobin functionality than I have heard before and allow at the same time an agility in my humble opinion unprecedented by any other Stringsamplelibrary which as far as I know them all would have stuck completly in their comparable lame attack times.

But for me it is by far not only the shorts but the whole range of articulations provided by Synchron Strings and their colors which was necessary for this music (of the I,II,IV Movement ). Since to realise an existing score you never can just set every note on Staccto. As this is of course not done in any of the movements of this Synchron Strings recording. 

I only indicated that in my humble opinion, this piece is for good reason not played by any middle-rate orchestra at all and that there is for good reason as far as I know also no programming of this 200 page of brilliant large orchestral score by any other programmer at all.

If you really think that would be "so easy", let me hear your version of this 200 Page-Score so we all can judge what makes you talking so courageous .

In short: there is no other programming of this score and even only comparable fiew traditional recordings of this score. if you call that simple fact "exclusive" I would better asume that it might perhaps be after all not that easy to realise that music. 

I am sure if you ever realy would have the chance to make the expirience of realising it, you would perhaps judge a bit more realistic about.

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

All the best, and keep the fine musicology approach.

Thank you for estimating it. It might be very european, but it is simply what I currently personally love most in the univers of Music.

All the best

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Thu, Oct 04 2018 20:01
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 292

 

Such a lost opportunity for a musical and technical discussion, but yes my fault expecting it: well, you can't really refrain from writing arrogant and pompous sentences, based on nothing... I know and I was expecting a bit of your usual inability of understanding comments, but this exceed my expectations. and was really outstanding! LOL

What you wrote about reverb, sound and phrasing, if it wasn't just the effect of a kind of emotional senseless reaction, it's instead the evidence you have some serious problem, not only with music culture, artistic sensibility and orchestral conducting, but with pure frequencies and sound perception. I'm so sorry for you... I hope you are not on the way of dear Ludwig. I'm serious... if you are using headset with loud music for hours every day, producing the undered of pages of score you are so proud of, you should take care of your sensorial perception not getting compromised.

For the rest, your words are self-commenting. You teach Maderna how to improve, and Casella how his music should be executed, you teach Guy how to write demos, and Dietz how to use MIR... what else? 

Relax a bit and take it easy... 

Posted on Thu, Oct 04 2018 21:54
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

 Such a lost opportunity for a musical and technical discussion,

Yes you obviously lost completly the track of the subject in this topic. It is necessary to listen and refer on to the recordings presented and not on what ever you like to personal insinuate other members here.

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Sat, Oct 06 2018 00:17
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 292
Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: fatis12_24918 Go to Quoted Post

Such a lost opportunity for a musical and technical discussion,

Yes you obviously lost completly the track of the subject in this topic. It is necessary to listen and refer on to the recordings presented and not on what ever you like to personal insinuate other members here.


Dear Fahl, this time I’ m even more serious.
1) If your ears are not able of perceiving the difference of reverb and phrasing, you may use digital meters, and get objective answers. But I don’t care, I don’t need to demonstrate anything as my personal opinion is exactly what it is: my personal opinion. Is it irritating to you? I’m sorry, I gave you my constructive feedback, and you may ignore it if you think different. Pretending you are the owner of the absolute truth and others didn’t listen, didn’t know, didn’t work enough etc. is pure offending arrogance. Don’t be surprised by sarcastic answers when you start your “ lectures” to people with academic and professional background larger than yours.

2) more important, please stop polluting the inbox of people with your insults. It’s not very mature, not very constructive, and it’s also out of the forum rules.
Posted on Sat, Oct 06 2018 00:33
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

I dont know whatever might drive you insiting posting things like that again and again.

However it is not only in its repetition more and more boring.

It is in it self simply no music at all, what means to me after all without any further interest.

So go on posting what you are able to contribute as I will post what I am able to

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Sat, Oct 06 2018 10:12
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 352

fatis12, give fahl a break. It is just a classic case of "wanna be artist turned analyzer", like magazine music reviewers who were not good enough to become composers, thus turned into critics. So don't blame him for his lack of skills when he churns out these endless "recordings". At least it keeps him busy and off the streets where he could be much more harmful.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Sat, Oct 06 2018 12:05
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

fatis12, It is just a classic case of "wanna be artist turned analyzer", like magazine music reviewers who were not good enough thus turned into critics.

Just think about Fatis perhaps Ravn has exactly found out your problem.

Hi Ravn,

Any News from 2018 you can provide that might show us, that this is not your problem to? (seems as if you havent updated your website in the last time that much)

Just to remind: a musician is someone who makes music as you can see in my case for instance

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Sat, Oct 06 2018 12:20
by Simon Ravn
Joined on Tue, Dec 10 2002, Copenhagen, Denmark, Posts 352

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

fatis12, It is just a classic case of "wanna be artist turned analyzer", like magazine music reviewers who were not good enough thus turned into critics.

Just think about Fatis perhaps Ravn has exactly found out your problem.

Hi Ravn,

Any News from 2018 you can provide that might show us, that this is not your problem to? (seems as if you havent updated your website in the last time that much)

Just to remind: a musician is someone who makes music as you can see in my case for instance

Sorry, my priority is not updating my website.

- Simon Ravn
Posted on Sat, Oct 06 2018 12:49
by fahl5
Joined on Fri, Feb 04 2005, Göttingen, Posts 956

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: fahl5 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Simon Ravn Go to Quoted Post

fatis12, It is just a classic case of "wanna be artist turned analyzer", like magazine music reviewers who were not good enough thus turned into critics.

Just think about Fatis perhaps Ravn has exactly found out your problem.

Hi Ravn,

Any News from 2018 you can provide that might show us, that this is not your problem to? (seems as if you havent updated your website in the last time that much)

Just to remind: a musician is someone who makes music as you can see in my case for instance

Sorry, my priority is not updating my website.

Ah I see your priority is commenting others instead of presenting anything productive yourself. Hm how did you called that a "wanna be artist turned analyzer",?

http://libraries.resampled.de/index.php
four parallel interpretations of ambitious classical scores with up to twelve different Libraries

http://beethoven.resampled.de
currently the first four Symphonies of L.v.Beethoven completly recorded with the finest available orchestra samplelibraries (BBCSO, SSO, STO)

http://klassik-resampled.de
Currently 4330 mp3 with more than a whole Week (=more than 8 Days /=nearly 200 hours) of sample based interpretations of complete Scores from 7 Centuries
Posted on Sat, Oct 06 2018 13:14
by michi
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2002, vienna, Posts 521

This thread obviously lost it's trace, now closed.

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