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RAM and disabling Individual channels
Last post Fri, Sep 04 2020 by MS, 17 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Nov 06 2018 11:54
by David Tee
Joined on Sat, May 06 2017, Posts 6

Hi.  I'm not that familiar with VEPro so the chances are high that I'm probably after the impossible or, more likely, doing something wrong.

I've set up multiple instances of Kontakt in VE Pro with an average of 14 instruments per instance.  I've got them all working on seperate channels, in Cubase.  I can set things up so that I can I enable / disable VE Pro tracks from within Cubase (not pretty, but it works).  My reason for wanting to disable tracks is to offload samples on a track by track basis when I'm not using them. 

However, at the moment samples are only offloaded if I disable the track listing Kontakt as a plug-in.  Disabling tracks linked to the plug-in has no effect on reducing memory.  

Is this how it works, or is there a way I can disable individual tracks, offloading their samples at the same time?

Any help would be mch appreciated.  Thanks.

 

 

   

Posted on Wed, Nov 07 2018 12:13
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13528

Hi David, 

You wrote: "Disabling tracks linked to the plug-in has no effect on reducing memory."

=> Which tracks are those, and how are they linked to the plug-in?

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Nov 17 2018 11:53
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

It seems like you're saying that disabling them in Cubase doesn't change the samples load.

At any rate what you want is freezing the channel in VE Pro, which unloads its samples. There is a downside to this, if you have Host Automation in Kontakt it tends to not come back to the Automation Map when you unfreeze (this is true of Reaktor as well, I suppose for Native Instruments period).

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Sat, Nov 17 2018 12:46
by David Tee
Joined on Sat, May 06 2017, Posts 6

Hi Paul,

Thanks and apologies for not getting back to you sooner - I thought I'd set things up so I'd be be informed if there was an answer. My bad...

It's probably best if I explain how I go about adding tracks.  the chances are I'm doing something wrong.

1) I right click in the left hand column of an instance, then go Insert Plug-in, VST - Native Instruments - Kontakt.  That loads Kontakt and I'm able to use what I've loaded as the first channel (track). 

2) I then go to the VE Pro Mixer page and add on channels (tracks) using the + sign above the outputs of the VST I've just loaded.  Those added channels are what I meant by "tracks linked to the plug-in"

If I disable those channels, it doesnt have any effect on reducing memory.  If I disable the first channel, it unloads not just what's on that channel, but everything else I've added under that VST instance.   I'd like to be able to reduce memory by disabling individual channels.

Posted on Sat, Nov 17 2018 12:56
by David Tee
Joined on Sat, May 06 2017, Posts 6

Originally Posted by: civilization 3 Go to Quoted Post

It seems like you're saying that disabling them in Cubase doesn't change the samples load.

At any rate what you want is freezing the channel in VE Pro, which unloads its samples. There is a downside to this, if you have Host Automation in Kontakt it tends to not come back to the Automation Map when you unfreeze (this is true of Reaktor as well, I suppose for Native Instruments period).

Hi, and thanks.   

I don't think the issue lies with Cubase.  If I leave Cubase out of the equation and just disable tracks in VE Pro, the sample load stays the same.  It's not until I disable the VST instance I've loaed that the Sample load falls and every channel linked to that VST has its samples removed.

Posted on Sun, Nov 18 2018 00:22
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 13528

Hi, 

I'm afraid disabling a channel does not work with separate AUX Channels but only with the whole inserted plug-in. 

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Nov 18 2018 08:21
by David Tee
Joined on Sat, May 06 2017, Posts 6

Thanks Paul,

Before I head down this path, if I was to stop using Aux channels and assign every instrument as plug-in, in my first instance I would have 140 instruments - so 140 uses of the Kontakt plug-in.   The chances are that I'm going to get to 4-5 instances.  While I will be able to offload all samples, reducing all the RAM would I be correct in assuming there's a downside (CPU?) to this approach?  

Posted on Sun, Nov 18 2018 10:22
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Please excuse me if I'm telling you something that you already know but when you disable a channel you're not relieving the sample burden you're just reducing the CPU burden.  Otherwise, when you turn that channel back on again it would have to reload the samples which takes time.

In your case I think the only way to reduce the sample burden would be to reduce the size of your projects (tremplates). Or, use the sample optimization which unloads the samples that your not using, if it's available in your case.  The trick with optimization is not having to go back and redo things because you'll probably have to reload all the samples again.

I actually work the same way you do (one track at a time) but I don't have VE Pro. 

Let's say, I'm writing a piece for Chamber Strings.  Because I layer my strings, I'll  load my large Orchestral String template then delete the channels that I don't need making the template smaller, thus reducing the sample burden.  Then for future use I'll save that reduced template as a Chamber Strings one.

Does that make sense?

Agian, I don't have VEP Pro but I hope this is still helpful to you.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Nov 19 2018 07:59
by David Tee
Joined on Sat, May 06 2017, Posts 6

Thanks Jasen - much appreciated.

Posted on Sun, Nov 25 2018 00:03
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

I'm still not clear on 'disabling channels', confusion arising out of bringing Cubase in.

 

My experience with Freezing channels in VE Pro 6 is that unfreezing the frozen channel containing Kontakt shows the samples being reloaded.
I would guess that w. no use of eg., Kontakt that may not be so apparent. But if the meaning here is Freeze a channel in VE Pro 6, ie., by the default command command-e (prob. control e under windows) it definitely unloads samples in Kontakt. There is no dialog popup for samples loading per se from a VI Pro 2 instrument apparently.

EDIT: wait, so you don't even HAVE VE Pro?  

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Sun, Nov 25 2018 00:06
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

Originally Posted by: David Tee Go to Quoted Post

Thanks Paul,

Before I head down this path, if I was to stop using Aux channels and assign every instrument as plug-in, in my first instance I would have 140 instruments - so 140 uses of the Kontakt plug-in.   The chances are that I'm going to get to 4-5 instances.  While I will be able to offload all samples, reducing all the RAM would I be correct in assuming there's a downside (CPU?) to this approach?  


I'm not Paul but VE Pro unloads samples in Kontakt-loaded channels upon freezing the channel as described above, without a doubt.
I don't think this responds to multiple selected channels = edit all, so you'd do it per channel/as needed.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Mon, Nov 26 2018 09:49
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582

Originally Posted by: civilization 3 Go to Quoted Post

EDIT: wait, so you don't even HAVE VE Pro?  

That's correct, I don't have VE Pro but I'm not the one who started the thread. 

I think the OP is trying to economize his sample loads so I had suggested making smaller templates.  I guess freezing tracks is an option too.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Wed, Nov 28 2018 02:17
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

"when you disable a channel you're not relieving the sample burden you're just reducing the CPU burden.  Otherwise, when you turn that channel back on again it would have to reload the samples which takes time."

So you are talking about in Cubase? If you freeze the plugin in Cubase VST Rack it unloads the samples. If you freeze a channel with a samples-using instrument in VE Pro, it unloads the samples.

So, again, I'm confused by the notion 'disabling channels', I mean I don't know what it means.

Freezing a Kontakt channel in VE Pro and unfreezing it is reloading the state it was in in VE Pro, with no need to save it before and subsequently reload it in a new instance of Kontakt. However, if you want the Host Automation as mapped in the Automation Mapping in VE Pro, it tends to come back without it connected. Reaktor, same issue.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Wed, Nov 28 2018 14:04
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1582
I was talking about VE not Cubase. Sorry for the confusion.

AFAIK you can't freeze channels or tracks in VE. Disabling channels has to do with the audio engine feeding the channel. When you turn a channel off you are disabling it but it won't affect the sample load thus it won't affect the RAM.

I think the OP was under the impression that turning the channel off (disabling it) would reduce sample/RAM burden on his system but it reduces CPU load instead.

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Wed, Nov 28 2018 22:48
by civilization 3
Joined on Sat, May 16 2009, SF Bay Area, Posts 1942

I guess you mean Vienna Ensemble not-Pro. Yeah, no, it doesn't have this feature. :)

With more interrogation of the issue, it appears it's been clarified by Paul pointing out that the channel with the actual sample in it has to be frozen, which I would have found self-evident. But assuredly, it unloads the samples in a Kontakt instantiation. I'm not tending to be freezing the VI Pro channels for some reason. But the question regarded Kontakt, and as a point of empirical fact these samples are unloaded by _freeze channel_ containing samples, default here is Command-E, probably Control-E under Windows, in VE Pro 6 currently.

MacBookPro 18,3
Apple M1 Pro: 2.3 GHz 8-core i9

Mac OS 12.3.1
VE Pro 7.1298, Nuendo 11.0.41
Posted on Fri, Aug 07 2020 23:12
by snattack
Joined on Fri, Oct 03 2008, Piteå, Sweden, Posts 71

Originally Posted by: jasensmith Go to Quoted Post
I was talking about VE not Cubase. Sorry for the confusion.

AFAIK you can't freeze channels or tracks in VE. Disabling channels has to do with the audio engine feeding the channel. When you turn a channel off you are disabling it but it won't affect the sample load thus it won't affect the RAM.

I think the OP was under the impression that turning the channel off (disabling it) would reduce sample/RAM burden on his system but it reduces CPU load instead.

 

No, it doesn't only reduce CPU usage. When the channel is disabled it will unload the samples. Enable the channel and it will reload the samples.

VEP7 seems to be leaking memory though sometimes. Adding/removing a Kontakt instance several times increases RAM usage, and it doesn't really free up all the memory, but put in in the avaliable part of the RAM memory. But if you save an instance with a channel unloaded, restart VEP and add the instance again, it will load will 0 RAM usage.


 
Posted on Fri, Sep 04 2020 15:08
by MS
Joined on Wed, Feb 19 2003, Vienna, Austria, Posts 1762

Originally Posted by: snattack Go to Quoted Post

VEP7 seems to be leaking memory though sometimes. Adding/removing a Kontakt instance several times increases RAM usage, and it doesn't really free up all the memory, but put in in the avaliable part of the RAM memory. But if you save an instance with a channel unloaded, restart VEP and add the instance again, it will load will 0 RAM usage.


 



I cannot reproduce these findings. VEP7 does not leak anything here when enabling/disabling channels or inserting/removing plug-ins.

Could you please tell me exactly how to reproduce this, and what tools you are using to observe memory allocations by the VEP7 process?

Also, if you do observe a memory leak when using Kontakt in VEP7, it would be great if you could verify the behavior with Kontakt inside of another host - if it behaves the same way, it is an issue with Kontakt, and not the host.

--
Martin Saleteg
Software Developer
Vienna Symphonic Library GmbH
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