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Solo Violin vs. Solo Violin 2 Question
Last post Fri, Dec 28 2018 by William, 19 replies.
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Posted on Sun, Dec 16 2018 23:16
by Leslie Sanford
Joined on Mon, Jan 06 2014, Posts 46

If I use, say, the staccato articulation from the Violin from the original Solo Strings, and I turn the dynamic range all the way down, the instrument has the same volume regardless of the velocity value of the notes (notes with a high enough velocity to trigger the loudest of the velocity layers may be a little louder, but the volume stays more or less the same regardless of how hard I play a note).

However, if I do the same with Solo Violin 2, notes played more softly definitely sound quieter than harder played notes.

I'm wondering what the difference is. If I had to guess, I'd say the samples for the first Violin were normalized where as the samples for the second were not.

Posted on Mon, Dec 17 2018 09:47
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1505

I've noticed this behavior too in the 2nd violin performance stacc (or is it Perf. Rep Stacc) not the regular stacc.  I find myself having to really crank up the Expression fader sometimes in order to balance with the 1st violin's spiccatos.

Unfortunately, I do not have an answer to your question but at least you know you're not going crazy because you're not the only one who has noticed this.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Mon, Dec 17 2018 17:13
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

I tried a comparison and noticed the same thing  - it shouldn't happen because it thwarts the idea of the slider. Probably something that needs to be updated (?)

Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2018 10:18
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 481

I can confirm the behavior described above. Quite confusing, when using both instruments.

Paolo

Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2018 15:09
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 11453

Hi!

Yes, quite a few things happened in those 10 years between Violin I (which was produced with the possibilities of GigaStudio and EXS 24 in mind) and Violin II, designed for our own sample player, Vienna Instruments. 

It's really 2 different instruments and concepts, which should also be quite audible in the results. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2018 15:22
by Leslie Sanford
Joined on Mon, Jan 06 2014, Posts 46

Hi Paul, 

That's a good point about the timespan between the two instruments. I have to remind myself of the original Solo Strings age; they still sound and play very fresh. I can also understand wanting to have newer instruments optimized to the present rather than being held back by the past.

Thank you for your reply.

Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2018 20:25
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

I don't understand the answer.   So that means simply that the effect of the dynamic range slider has been lessened in Violin 2?  I don't see how that is more advanced.  

Posted on Thu, Dec 20 2018 01:13
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

Can there be a VSL answer to this?  I sincerely don't understand why this has been made different from Violin 1.  The reason is - violin 1 dynamic range allows total control over that parameter.  Very useful.  The new violin - after a decade of work - does not.  How is that better?  This makes no sense to me.  I am not trying to be obnoxious, I simply don't understand this reasoning.  Why is that better than the old version of dynamic range?  

Posted on Thu, Dec 20 2018 08:49
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 11453

Hi William, 

You are actually a bit obnoxious there 

"Better" is always relative (obviously). The fact that we changed the recording and editing setup also has consequences for the playability, and the behaviour of the Dynamic Range is one of them. 

Not much we can do there at this point, I'm afraid. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Dec 21 2018 03:25
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

I was not trying to be obnoxious.  I honestly did not understand how less dynamic range control is an advance over more.  

But never mind, I will not comment any more.  

Posted on Fri, Dec 21 2018 07:39
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 11453

Hi William, 

My apologies, this may have come across the wrong way. 

I wanted to make a joke and point out that there are a few things we cannot change (at least not easily, or without changing the music that has been produced until now with these instruments). 

I will keep this in mind and if an opportunity comes up, we will improve this. 

Enjoy the holidays!

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Dec 21 2018 16:45
by esperlad
Joined on Thu, Nov 07 2002, Posts 230

How does the muted Violin compare with the other solo violins? I am asking in terms of dynamic control and programing. 

Posted on Sat, Dec 22 2018 09:56
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1505

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

Hi William, 

My apologies, this may have come across the wrong way. 

I wanted to make a joke and point out that there are a few things we cannot change (at least not easily, or without changing the music that has been produced until now with these instruments). 

I will keep this in mind and if an opportunity comes up, we will improve this. 

Enjoy the holidays!

Best,
Paul

I'm not trying to be difficult here either but I think William has a good point. 

I've been working with various string ensembles lately (quartets, quintets, sextets, etc.) and I find that both the Violin 2 and Cello 2 are my two "unruly" players who quite often need extra attention because of this issue.  It's not a big deal as I always find ways to get them to do what I want in the end but it can be a bit of a nuisance sometimes.

I wouldn't ask VSL to completely rerecord or revamp the two instruments but how about a Violin 3 and Cello 3 done the same way as the 2's?

You could do it while you're recording Viola 2  


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sat, Dec 22 2018 10:40
by stefan_telser
Joined on Wed, Mar 14 2007, Posts 86

Hi,

I would wish for two violins recorded unisono (The samples maybe taken from dimension strings). Then I could use my Solo Violin for each voice and simply switch to the unison patches when they play unison. I don't know if this sound convincing with violins.

I do something similar with flute 1 and 2. I use flute 2 only for doubling.

Its easier and more consitant to program and to handle. This may seem a bit of a waste of sample power but - honestly - I don't really hear a difference between the two instuments. As I said, it makes programming - in my opinion - easier.

Actually I would love to have all instruments recorded in pairs (similar to the ensemble patches that come mostly in three).

Best Stefan

Posted on Sun, Dec 23 2018 03:03
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

I never meant to be demanding or wanting more stuff or improvements, etc.  I was just confused about the concept.  

The 2nd violin is a fantastically good instrument as well as the 1st.  I actually can't determine which I like better because they are both so good.  Though the first has more articulations, the articulations in the 2nd are perfectly selected.  Also, I've never actually used a huge amount of dynamic range adjustment, only a little, so I think this may be the concept behind dialing down the radical amount possible with the 1st violin.

Posted on Sun, Dec 23 2018 09:48
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1505

Originally Posted by: stefan_telser Go to Quoted Post

but - honestly - I don't really hear a difference between the two instuments. As I said, it makes programming - in my opinion - easier.

Are you talking about Violin 1 and 2?  To my ears, Violin 2 has a darker color to it  In fact, sometimes I confuse some of the lower notes with a Viola but, again, that's just my ears.

And I agree with William that they are both beautiful sounding instruments.  The cellos too.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Dec 23 2018 19:00
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

I haven't A/B'd them but felt similarly, that the 2nd violin is a little darker and more "mellow" while the 1st violin is more in your face and brighter, like a concertmaster or soloist.  The 2nd also seems to have a bit less vibrato. Though you could certainly use various articulations - for example tremolo or staccato -  interchangeably.  It is great to have these both for string quartet or chamber sound.  ALso mixing both with Dimension violins is fantastic.   I did recently a small orchestra setup with 1st solo and 4 Dimension violins on 1st, and 2nd solo and 4 other D violins on 2nd and it is wonderful to have that subtly varied but cohesive sound.

Posted on Wed, Dec 26 2018 10:32
by stefan_telser
Joined on Wed, Mar 14 2007, Posts 86

Hi

I no way I meant to belittle the Violin 2 as an instrument. I just sometimes find it hard to combine instuments that were recorded or produced in different fashions.

For example I like to combine the Triple Horn (VI) with the Horns of the Dimension Brass. The problem is that they seem to be recorded with very different velocities in mind. I have to play the Triple Horn (Dimension ) one dynamic level higher than the Triple Horn(VI) to get the same dynamic. In numbers that would be a velocity of 110 vs 90.

For that matter I prefer to apply the same instument  to both melodic lines using a second instument of the same fashion only to play the unison. That probably degrades the sonic experience in some way, but to me it makes work somewhat easier. I have to admit, I struggle anyway with the complexity of the system. And for two violins playing unison - well - I would prefer to have two violins recorded together than two different single instruments.

Best Stefan

Posted on Fri, Dec 28 2018 03:57
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5397

Well, that is true, to translate instantly one patch into another is sometimes difficult.  But what is striking about the "OLD" VSL  is that the instruments can be substituted very easily.  

What I meant was combining the sound of the instruments, as opposed to instantly changing articulations.  They combine as well as different live players. 

Though now that I think of it, I did do a straight transfer of solo violin 1 to solo violin 2 on one piece, and it was not a problem.  Though that might have depended on the particular articulations used in the piece.

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