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Trills in Dimension strings VIPro and SYnzd
Last post Fri, Jul 12 2019 by richhickey, 8 replies.
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Posted on Fri, May 17 2019 10:02
by V_ad_im
Joined on Fri, Feb 25 2011, Posts 118

Hi!
I found that trills in DS SYnzd are not such playable as in VIPro version. As you can listen in att. files, the best way to make trill in VIPro version is keep pressed one note and periodically press another note. It is not possible in SYnzd (or what option I need to activate for it?). Also it seems like a bug if I try to play half trill in VIPro sequencer on notes H and E. 

File Attachment(s):
ManualU0020trillU0020DSU0020VIPro.mp3 (351kb) downloaded 10 time(s).
ManualU0020trillU0020DSU0020SYnzd.mp3 (351kb) downloaded 10 time(s).
VIProU0020SeqenserU0020trillU0020HalfU0020toneU0020DSU0020VIPro.mp3 (1,289kb) downloaded 9 time(s).
V_ad_im attached the following image(s):
trill.JPG (33kb) downloaded 5 time(s).

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Posted on Fri, May 17 2019 11:27
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4607

Hi V ad im

holding one key permanently is not recommended, also not in VI.
The performance trills are based on multiple variations of the same interval samples, and holding one key permanently will trigger always the same interval sample in one direction. The other key which is performed will trigger the variations. So depending which key you have fixed either all up or all down intervalsamples are not altered. So a real performed trill on a keyboard will offer the best results.

best
Herb

Posted on Fri, May 17 2019 11:43
by V_ad_im
Joined on Fri, Feb 25 2011, Posts 118

In real violins players also keep pressed one string, it can be allowed that one of sounds is not changes :) Ok, but as you can listen examples, the result of playing trill by periodically pressing 2 notes in both cases is very viscosity.. what parameters I must change for the result (speed and clearity) of manual playing of trills was same as if I keep one note pressed or if I use VIPro sequencer? (I found, that humanize delay affects, but sound is sluggish even if I set humanize to 0. If user must to tweak humanize, attack, release only for one articulation, it seems not usable, not 'plug-n-play')

Posted on Fri, May 17 2019 16:23
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5379

"In real violins players also keep pressed one string, it can be allowed that one of sounds is not changes :) " - v ad im

That is not true.  It is only the pitch that is the same, not the audio.  A digital sample of a single note is the exact same waveform but a live performance is a different one every time.  That is what the correctly played performance trill is representing.  They work very well for doing this and allow varying speeds of trills.

The way to create a performance trill is either play one on the keyboard with slight overlap of all the notes or program one with slightly overlapping note values.  It is desirable as well to use some humanization in both timing and velocity.  

Posted on Fri, May 17 2019 23:58
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 209

Originally Posted by: herb Go to Quoted Post

Hi V ad im

holding one key permanently is not recommended, also not in VI.
The performance trills are based on multiple variations of the same interval samples, and holding one key permanently will trigger always the same interval sample in one direction. The other key which is performed will trigger the variations. So depending which key you have fixed either all up or all down intervalsamples are not altered. So a real performed trill on a keyboard will offer the best results.

best
Herb

To expand on Maestro Herb's post here, I would add that sometimes the holding down the lower note of the trill may appear to render a more even-sounding trill, but it is in fact less realistic AND less flexible than playing a well-performed trill.  Yes it might sound more even (a good thing) but it sacrifices some key elements.

My unsolicited advice:

A well-performed trill should have some shape to it, meaning that there are (for lack of a better term) micro crescendos within a turn or trill that help propell the phrase (unless of course, it is a purposefully marked/intended decrescendo).  That crescendo usually comes from the lower note more so than the upper!  So, you want to have those repeated lower notes, each with a slightly different "feel" or "landing" to them which would mimic a professional playing a nice, tight trill.

Another tip is temporarily taking your tempo to larghissimo, zooming in on your trill, and seeing which notes make it sound like a dotted rhythm, adjust the midi, then put the tempo back where it was.  That might help smooth things out.

Or, if you are using VI Pro, the APP Sequencer has preprogramed trills!  These are GREAT!  So if someone can't play a super tight trill, in the APP Sequencer in VI Pro you could trigger a super tight trill with your toe... or nose... or... what ever appendage isn't in use at that moment. 

EDIT: also implement humanize like William said!

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.5. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Sat, May 18 2019 00:15
by V_ad_im
Joined on Fri, Feb 25 2011, Posts 118

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh Go to Quoted Post

  These are GREAT! 



Yes, the Vipro sequencer make good trills, but, how to fix a bug with notes H and E (examples in the first message of the topic)? Also, if it's not possible to play natural trills by hands in SY player, this function (or patch) must be improved by VSL (IMHO) for as less as ability in VIPro

Posted on Fri, May 24 2019 21:01
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 209

Originally Posted by: V_ad_im Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh Go to Quoted Post

  These are GREAT! 



Yes, the Vipro sequencer make good trills, but, how to fix a bug with notes H and E (examples in the first message of the topic)? Also, if it's not possible to play natural trills by hands in SY player, this function (or patch) must be improved by VSL (IMHO) for as less as ability in VIPro

 

In the sequencer, you can edit the midi notes... that's what I'd do... make it immitate the other ones.  Or, consider using one of the sul patches.

It *IS* possible to play natural trills by hand in the SY player.  I do it all the time! :) 

2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.5. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Fri, Jul 12 2019 19:45
by richhickey
Joined on Wed, Nov 01 2017, Posts 21

Regardless as to arguments about what is right or best or whatever, like the OP I find the difference here to be a loss of useful functionality and would appreciate an option to restore that behavior.

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