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patch change questions
Last post Fri, Mar 30 2007 by Miguélez, 22 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Dec 24 2004 00:00
by belkina
Joined on Sun, Jun 13 2004, Montreal, Canada, Posts 424
I am new to Giga, and would like to know how the patch changes I see in the VSL manual work. Do you have to stack the instruments on one channel first? Or will they load while playing (sounds unlikely!)???

Does this mean that instead of having to load every kind of articulation I need into one midi channel I can have successive ones on the same channel, like in a hardware sampler?

Thanks!

Alan
Tags: MIDI Patches
Posted on Fri, Dec 24 2004 11:40
by gugliel
Joined on Wed, Aug 25 2004, Posts 383
You load all the instruments/articulations into gigastudio before beginning to play or use your sequencer. Then patch changes call up appropriate articulations/instruments to the midi channel on which you are playing or to the midi channel(s) your sequencer is sending.

So, no, you don't stack them, and no, they don't load while playing -- but you can 'preload' many more instruments in gigastudio than you might be used to in kompakt. The whole set of available instruments kind of sits in a holding pen of loaded but maybe not currently used instruments. My 'strings' performance file loads 30-some instruments, and then the midi sequence changes the patch as appropriate. Though there have been some problems in changing patches in gs3 when the bank number is > 0.
Musical examples at www.soundclick.com/guglielmo
Posted on Fri, Dec 24 2004 12:19
by belkina
Joined on Sun, Jun 13 2004, Montreal, Canada, Posts 424
Incidentally, does anybody have any idea how to make the Giga DP tracks include the bank select info when you inserts the patch changes?

gugliel wrote:
You load all the instruments/articulations into gigastudio before beginning to play or use your sequencer. Then patch changes call up appropriate articulations/instruments to the midi channel on which you are playing or to the midi channel(s) your sequencer is sending.

So, no, you don't stack them, and no, they don't load while playing -- but you can 'preload' many more instruments in gigastudio than you might be used to in kompakt. The whole set of available instruments kind of sits in a holding pen of loaded but maybe not currently used instruments. My 'strings' performance file loads 30-some instruments, and then the midi sequence changes the patch as appropriate. Though there have been some problems in changing patches in gs3 when the bank number is > 0.
Posted on Sat, Dec 25 2004 13:58
by belkina
Joined on Sun, Jun 13 2004, Montreal, Canada, Posts 424
gugliel wrote:
[...] Though there have been some problems in changing patches in gs3 when the bank number is > 0.


I can confirm that in 3.04 this still is not working correctly. Sad((
Posted on Sun, Dec 26 2004 22:31
by gugliel
Joined on Wed, Aug 25 2004, Posts 383
My sequencer is sonar -- it offers three ways to change patches, and it seems that gigastudio 3 works best with the "controller 0" version. If you send a cc#0 with the data value set to the bank you need, then follow it with a patch change, it mostly works. It is very frustrating to have to do this, of course -- gigastudio 2.5 worked flawlessly, over ethernet midi and with any kind of patch change.
Musical examples at www.soundclick.com/guglielmo
Posted on Wed, Dec 29 2004 19:39
by David Govett
Joined on Mon, Jul 29 2002, Austin Texas USA, Posts 1046
There are several ways to load instruments and this whole thing can be confusing if you don't know what is going on.

For example, take a multi instrument .gig file from VSL. It might have 10 or 20 instruments inside it, some even sharing the same samples, just different variations. If you drag & drop the whole .gig file to a MIDI channel, the first instrument in that .gig file will load to the MIDI channel but the rest will show up in the loaded instruments window, instantly available and using up their share of RAM. You could then drag & drop instruments for that window to MIDI channels anytime you want or use a patch change command to suck them to a MIDI channel.

Or you can break open a .gig file in the loader window and see the individual instruments inside. Then you can just load one of them at a time to a MIDI channel and only that instrument and its samples will be loaded into RAM. If you then load another instrument from that .gig file AND it uses some or all of the same samples as the one loaded before, it will load very quickly then and use the samples that are already in RAM. It won't load redundant samples provided these are in a .gig file together.

Keep that in mind as you load & use patch changes.
Dave
Posted on Wed, Dec 29 2004 21:24
by belkina
Joined on Sun, Jun 13 2004, Montreal, Canada, Posts 424
Thanks, but patch changes with bank > 0 don't work at all in 3.04. I am using DP as my sequencer. WIth bank = 0 they work normally. Very wierd ...

Anyway, due to the processor spike problem, Giga is just plain unusable for me at this point ...

David Govett wrote:
There are several ways to load instruments and this whole thing can be confusing if you don't know what is going on.

For example, take a multi instrument .gig file from VSL. It might have 10 or 20 instruments inside it, some even sharing the same samples, just different variations. If you drag & drop the whole .gig file to a MIDI channel, the first instrument in that .gig file will load to the MIDI channel but the rest will show up in the loaded instruments window, instantly available and using up their share of RAM. You could then drag & drop instruments for that window to MIDI channels anytime you want or use a patch change command to suck them to a MIDI channel.

Or you can break open a .gig file in the loader window and see the individual instruments inside. Then you can just load one of them at a time to a MIDI channel and only that instrument and its samples will be loaded into RAM. If you then load another instrument from that .gig file AND it uses some or all of the same samples as the one loaded before, it will load very quickly then and use the samples that are already in RAM. It won't load redundant samples provided these are in a .gig file together.

Keep that in mind as you load & use patch changes.
Dave
Posted on Thu, Dec 30 2004 02:18
by Martin Nadeau
Joined on Sat, Aug 12 2006, Posts 10
Hi,

I just want to confirm what Alan is saying (we keep in touch, so he knows we're both having the same diffculties) Wink

This seems to be a problem between Digital Performer and GigaStudio 3.04. When sending bank/patch changes from DP on my Mac to GigaStudio on my PC's, Giga won't recognize any patch change from a bank higher than bank 0. It just doesn't see them.

As a test, I downloaded the demo of a different sequencer yesterday (Metro for Mac OS X) and tried sending a few patch changes to Giga. It worked and Giga was seeing all the patch changes sent by Metro, even in banks >0.

So, there seems to be something going on between Digital Performer (I'm using 4.5 and I believe Alan is using 4.12) and Giga. I'm not sure if the problem lies on Giga or DP's side, or if both applications have to be updated to fix this. Also, it's certainly possible that there could be problems with other sequencers as well, Metro and DP for OS X are the only 2 I have tested. BTW, all this was working fine with Giga 2.54.

Now, the hard part is getting the right people to know about this issue. I've written both MOTU and Tascam about this, but haven't received a reply. Who knows when and if the programmers will be made aware of the issue...

Because of the way I have setup all my templates in my studio a long time ago, this is a major issue for me that keeps me from working, at least in a way that's practical for me. So, I hope this can get fixed sooner rather than later.

P.S. I've been posting about this issue on a couple of other forums. My apologies to those who are reading about my problems for the 3rd or 4th time. Smile
Posted on Thu, Dec 30 2004 06:04
by gugliel
Joined on Wed, Aug 25 2004, Posts 383
I said above that patch changes use controller 0 for bank -- that was not right, as far as I can tell using Sonar: the 3.04 revision works fine with patch changes as sent by Sonar where they use controller 32. So because different hardware synths use different methods of patch changes, your DP sequencer probably has options to use different methods too. (At least, Sonar does).

To verify, try adding a controller 32 just before your bank/patch change, with the data value in cc32 being the bank number (0-127). Also, it could be an offset problem (bank 1-128, rather than 0-127).
Musical examples at www.soundclick.com/guglielmo
Posted on Thu, Dec 30 2004 17:26
by Martin Nadeau
Joined on Sat, Aug 12 2006, Posts 10
Hi Guglielmo,

Thanks for your reply. I've tried sending both controller 0 and controller 32 messages from DP, but Giga 3.04 doesn't recognize any of them. Also, it's not an offset problem because in that case sending a bank change message for bank #5 would simply play a patch from bank #4, which I have tried. It didn't work.

From my experience with using software, I have a feeling this is really a bug in either Giga or DP, and not just a configuration problem. However, I would need other users to test this. Unfortunately, I've written on various forums and mailing lists and I haven't been able to get a single DP-Giga user to even commnent on this issue. Also, neither MOTU nor Tascam have replied to my emails, if only to let me know that they had received them. The only other user I'm aware of is Alan, who's having the exact same problem as me (and more). Sad

Come on people, we can't be the only 2 musicians using Giga in conjunction with DP on a Mac? Smile
Posted on Fri, Dec 31 2004 00:49
by David Govett
Joined on Mon, Jul 29 2002, Austin Texas USA, Posts 1046
Sounds more like a DP problem since the other sequencers seem to work fine. However, for a sanity check, it would be ideal if you can hook up another synth (hardware or even software) via MIDI to DP that can accept bank changes and see if that works. If it fails, then the problem is exclusive to DP. If it works, then it is still a slight glitch with DP but something that the Giga guys could adjust to most likely. See if you can do that at some point and let us know how it goes. Send me a PM if you do this in addition to posting here if you could.

Cheers
Dave
Posted on Fri, Dec 31 2004 02:17
by belkina
Joined on Sun, Jun 13 2004, Montreal, Canada, Posts 424
I just tested DP with 2 hardware synths, one of which requires bank changes and the other does not. Both worked perfectly right away with no tweaking.

I also just tested Sibelius w. Giga and ... patch changes work fine!

I suspect we just haven't found quite the right way to enter the data in DP.

The thought plickens ... Wink

David Govett wrote:
Sounds more like a DP problem since the other sequencers seem to work fine. However, for a sanity check, it would be ideal if you can hook up another synth (hardware or even software) via MIDI to DP that can accept bank changes and see if that works. If it fails, then the problem is exclusive to DP. If it works, then it is still a slight glitch with DP but something that the Giga guys could adjust to most likely. See if you can do that at some point and let us know how it goes. Send me a PM if you do this in addition to posting here if you could.

Cheers
Dave
Posted on Sun, Jan 09 2005 16:17
by belkina
Joined on Sun, Jun 13 2004, Montreal, Canada, Posts 424
Finally found it:

DP provides 3 fields for a patch change event. The correct way to send patch changes to Giga is, reading these three fields left to right:

Giga Patch number +1, 0, Giga Bank number

So, to get Giga to change to bank 3, instrument 4, you would send from DP:

5, 0, 3

Maybe this will save someone else the days it took me and a friend to figure this out ...
Posted on Mon, Jan 10 2005 05:13
by Martin Nadeau
Joined on Sat, Aug 12 2006, Posts 10
Hey Alan, you beat me to it!

Just to add to Alan's post, the really important thing here is that cc0 must always have a value of "0". If it has a different value, patch changes won't work.

At first, I didn't know if Giga 3 was responding to cc0 or cc32, so to be sure I was always sending the same bank value on both controllers. For example, if I wanted a patch from bank 5, I would send a cc0 value of "5" as well as a cc32 value of "5". Big mistake!

For Giga to correctly understand the bank/patch change, I had to send a cc0 value of "0" and a cc32 value of "5". If I want to send a patch change message for a patch in bank 72, I have to send a cc0 value of "0" and a cc32 value of "72". And so on...

Hope that wasn't too confusing. And thanks to Alan for his help in clarifying what patch change info Giga 3 understands, which led us to this incredible discovery!

I'd also like to thank my parents, my sister, my cousins, my dog, everyone who's ever worked with me......

Smile
Posted on Mon, Jan 10 2005 20:55
by David Govett
Joined on Mon, Jul 29 2002, Austin Texas USA, Posts 1046
Cool! Big Smile
Posted on Mon, Jan 10 2005 22:13
by gugliel
Joined on Wed, Aug 25 2004, Posts 383
Congratulations. Hope future users find this thread and honor your detective work!
Musical examples at www.soundclick.com/guglielmo
Posted on Sat, Jan 22 2005 16:30
by amm
Joined on Sat, Aug 21 2004, Wokingham, Berkshire, UK, Posts 51
Hi Alan

Just picked up on this thread as I was searching for some answers. I use DP 4.52 and GS3.03 I followed your notes on using patch changes, and did get a result. However, I've had no luck using the default patch column on Performer to do the same thing. I only get generic patch 1-128 names, and no way to control the bank.

Have you had any luck with this?

Andrew
iMac 27 (mid 2015), current OSX, 32GB Ram, DP 9.xx (current), VEPro6, Vienna Instruments2, assorted VIs, ...
Posted on Sat, Jan 22 2005 20:06
by belkina
Joined on Sun, Jun 13 2004, Montreal, Canada, Posts 424
What shows up in the default patch column depends on what
"instrument" DP thinks it's seeing. In Audio Midi setup you have to make whatever your Giga outputs are *look like* a synth which accepts bank numbers. In my case, I set up a dummy EMU Ultraproteus.

Of course then you will see Ultraproteus patch names in DP, which you can either ignore or edit (with Cherrypicker - I think it's freeware).

cmm wrote:
Hi Alan

Just picked up on this thread as I was searching for some answers. I use DP 4.52 and GS3.03 I followed your notes on using patch changes, and did get a result. However, I've had no luck using the default patch column on Performer to do the same thing. I only get generic patch 1-128 names, and no way to control the bank.

Have you had any luck with this?

Andrew
Posted on Sat, Jan 22 2005 21:02
by amm
Joined on Sat, Aug 21 2004, Wokingham, Berkshire, UK, Posts 51
Certainly seems to be a workaround. The cursor doesn't co-operate very well for me when trying to access any sub-menus (anything below bank 1). Have you discovered any key combination that helps select lower banks? Maybe yours works fine...
iMac 27 (mid 2015), current OSX, 32GB Ram, DP 9.xx (current), VEPro6, Vienna Instruments2, assorted VIs, ...
Posted on Sat, Jan 22 2005 22:22
by belkina
Joined on Sun, Jun 13 2004, Montreal, Canada, Posts 424
This problem I have never had.

cmm wrote:
Certainly seems to be a workaround. The cursor doesn't co-operate very well for me when trying to access any sub-menus (anything below bank 1). Have you discovered any key combination that helps select lower banks? Maybe yours works fine...
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