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Reduce the sound of bow scrapes, key clicks etc.
Last post Mon, Jun 10 2019 by Seventh Sam, 9 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Jun 08 2019 22:29
by klavieronin
Joined on Tue, May 14 2019, Posts 6

I really like the Vienna instruments but sometimes I don't want to hear the non-musical sounds that are present in the samples, such as the scraping of the bow in high notes of the solo violin or key clicks when playing intervals on the flute (these are just two examples of many). Is there any way to effectively reduce these? I've tried increasing the reverb but that doesn't seem to help all that much and also I don't always want a lot of reverb. Obviously this is less of a problem when the full orchestra is playing but if it's a solo piece or solo section I feel like these sounds are a little too obvious.

On a similar note, I've been trying to figure out the difference between VI and Synchron. Is Synchron basically all the instruments and articulation of VI but recodred wet and with different mic positions? Do the further mic positions have some of these sounds that I'm trying to minimise?

Thanks

Posted on Sun, Jun 09 2019 09:46
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1505

Funny? I don't really notice those sounds all that much but have you tried EQ 'ing the sounds out?

Are you using the VI pro player?

You could try adjusting the Start Offset which might reduce some of those noises.  I know it works really well to reduce that initial pick noise on the Overdrive guitar but you could try it for the key noises too.

 

As for your second question VI refers to the Vienna Player which plays the dry samples from the Silent Stage sample libraries while the Synchron samples were recorded in the Synchron concert hall so, yes, Synchron has the reverb baked into the samples.  At least that's how I understand it I just have VI products no Synchron.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Sun, Jun 09 2019 10:11
by bbelius
Joined on Sat, Mar 14 2015, Posts 559

Hi,

if I remember correctly these "non-musical" sounds are in the transition samples (legato, eg.).
If you don't want them use the sustained sound (there is a auto-sustained that simulates legato transitions).
For string instruments there are EQ-presets in the VEP7 EQ (or the Vienna Suite) called "Resonance Menu". They help you to filter resoncanes and bow noise out of the instrument.

Imo: I like the instrument noise in the samples (especially with the flutes), because it gives a natural touch to the music. Real players can't always avoid these noises, so why should I remove them from my music?

Synchron instruments are recorded wet (Synchron Strings, Synchron Pianos, Synchron Percussion). All other instruments (called "Synchronized") are the same recordings as the dry librarys, but remastered and with added presets containing pre-set reverb, eq, panning and volume. You can alter, enable or disable these fx in the player.

Best, Ben

Ben
Technical Support - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Jun 09 2019 22:55
by klavieronin
Joined on Tue, May 14 2019, Posts 6

Thanks for you suggestions. I will try them out.

Also thanks for the info about Synchron vs VI. It's actually the New Synchron-ized Special edition I was interested in (I only just bought the Special edition bundle so I'm still getting to know everything and it's a little confusing at the moment)

Posted on Mon, Jun 10 2019 10:46
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 120
Originally Posted by: klavieronin Go to Quoted Post
I really like the Vienna instruments but sometimes I don't want to hear the non-musical sounds that are present in the samples, such as the scraping of the bow in high notes of the solo violin or key clicks when playing intervals on the flute (these are just two examples of many). Is there any way to effectively reduce these? I've tried increasing the reverb but that doesn't seem to help all that much andalso I don't always wanta lot of reverb. Obviously this is less of a problem when the full orchestra is playing but if it's a solo piece or solo section I feel like these sounds are a little too obvious.


You'll need the Vienna instruments pro player to do this. Go to the advanced view and click on the "edit" tab below the slot view. Change the offset mode to "Leg" so it only effects the legato interval samples. Then, adjust the start offset and start offset delay parameters as needed. Furthermore, use the start offset scaler in the control panel area to automate via cc how much of this truncation of the legato samples is applied at any one time. This way you can not only get rid of clicks but keep them in if they work for you during certain notes and passages.

I find this extremely helpful with woodwinds and depth. If the instrument is far away and in an orchestra, I scale it back so the transitions are less clicky and don't mess up the illusion, but if it's up front and I want to hear the bass clarinet in all its crooning, clickety glory, I leave it untouched. Powerful feature!

Posted on Mon, Jun 10 2019 12:19
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 49

Hello Klavieronin,

Egregious bow scrape noise is a particular bugbear of mine also. I've found a way to reduce it substantially in monophonic instruments, though it can be a bit of a faff to set up correctly. 

With the aid of a spectrum analyser, there are two keyboard-tracking external filters to be applied, having first ensured that both filters are set up to track MIDI note numbers precisely:- 

  (1) a steep-slope high-pass placed immediately below the instrument's partial No 1;

  (2) a steep-slope -ve band-shelf or bandstop (or a simple peak may do nearly as well) positioned tightly between partials No 1 and 2.

In both cases avoid attenuating the partials themselves.

On the analyser you'll see bowing noise all over the place; nevertheless, I've found this method substantially attenuates the worst of what we can hear of it. One drawback is that in fast passages I can sometimes hear the filters moving with each note, which is a definite no-no; but since bowing noise tends to be less of a nuisance in fast passages the filters can be bypassed by automation during those sections in the music.

I've used MeldaProduction's MAutoDynamicEQ (with dynamics switched off) for this, though there are other plugins that will do as well if not better. Unfortunately, in Logic I have yet to work out a way to apply keyboard tracking to FabFilter's exquisite Pro Q3.

Well, like I said: a bit of a faff. But if the scrapes annoy you as much as they do me, I think you'll find it's worth the hassle.

Posted on Mon, Jun 10 2019 12:20
by klavieronin
Joined on Tue, May 14 2019, Posts 6

Originally Posted by: samsonite789 Go to Quoted Post
You'll need the Vienna instruments pro player to do this. Go to the advanced view and click on the "edit" tab below the slot view. Change the offset mode to "Leg" so it only effects the legato interval samples. Then, adjust the start offset and start offset delay parameters as needed. Furthermore, use the start offset scaler in the control panel area to automate via cc how much of this truncation of the legato samples is applied at any one time. This way you can not only get rid of clicks but keep them in if they work for you during certain notes and passages. I find this extremely helpful with woodwinds and depth. If the instrument is far away and in an orchestra, I scale it back so the transitions are less clicky and don't mess up the illusion, but if it's up front and I want to hear the bass clarinet in all its crooning, clickety glory, I leave it untouched. Powerful feature!

Hmm, I don't have VI Pro. I was considering getting it but wasn't sure if the added features were ones that I would use. I guess I should reconsider.

Posted on Mon, Jun 10 2019 12:27
by klavieronin
Joined on Tue, May 14 2019, Posts 6

Originally Posted by: Macker Go to Quoted Post

Hello Klavieronin,

Egregious bow scrape noise is a particular bugbear of mine also. I've found a way to reduce it substantially in monophonic instruments, though it can be a bit of a faff to set up correctly. 

With the aid of a spectrum analyser, there are two keyboard-tracking external filters to be applied, having first ensured that both filters are set up to track MIDI note numbers precisely:- 

  (1) a steep-slope high-pass placed immediately below the instrument's partial No 1;

  (2) a steep-slope -ve band-shelf or bandstop (or a simple peak may do nearly as well) positioned tightly between partials No 1 and 2.

In both cases avoid attenuating the partials themselves.

On the analyser you'll see bowing noise all over the place; nevertheless, I've found this method substantially attenuates the worst of what we can hear of it. One drawback is that in fast passages I can sometimes hear the filters moving with each note, which is a definite no-no; but since bowing noise tends to be less of a nuisance in fast passages the filters can be bypassed by automation during those sections in the music.

I've used MeldaProduction's MAutoDynamicEQ (with dynamics switched off) for this, though there are other plugins that will do as well if not better. Unfortunately, in Logic I have yet to work out a way to apply keyboard tracking to FabFilter's exquisite Pro Q3.

Well, like I said: a bit of a faff. But if the scrapes annoy you as much as they do me, I think you'll find it's worth the hassle.

Thanks Macker. That's quite a solution. Probably not for me though. I get the jist of what you are saying but a lot of that just went over my head. Appreciate the reply nevertheless.

Posted on Mon, Jun 10 2019 15:17
by Seventh Sam
Joined on Sat, Dec 29 2018, Posts 120
Originally Posted by: klavieronin Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: samsonite789 Go to Quoted Post
You'll need the Vienna instruments pro player to do this. Go to the advanced view and click on the "edit" tab below the slot view. Change the offset mode to "Leg" so it only effects the legato interval samples. Then, adjust the start offset and start offset delay parameters as needed. Furthermore, use the start offset scaler in the control panel area to automate via cc how much of this truncation of the legato samples is applied at any one time. This way you can not only get rid of clicks but keep them in if they work for you during certain notes and passages. I find this extremely helpful with woodwinds and depth. If the instrument is far away and in an orchestra, I scale it back so the transitions are less clicky and don't mess up the illusion, but if it's up front and I want to hear the bass clarinet in all its crooning, clickety glory, I leave it untouched. Powerful feature!

Hmm, I don't have VI Pro. I was considering getting it but wasn't sure if the added features were ones that I would use. I guess I should reconsider.


The sequence and interval map features are worth the price of admission alone, in my opinion. It's the best sample player I've ever used.
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