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Synchron Player - user definable controller values
Last post Fri, Feb 25 2022 by gdugan2, 8 replies.
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Posted on Sun, May 31 2020 15:52
by assagai
Joined on Mon, Aug 30 2010, Posts 17

Will Synchron player ever get user definable values for controllers like VIPRO has?

I understand the use of the curve, but it involves way more guesswork/tweaking and is more unpredictable than the way the x/y axis works in VIPRO which allows for far more precision, and is one of the reasons I sometimes use VIPRO over synchron.

Also will the Synchron Player ever get a sequencer function?

Thanks

Posted on Sun, May 31 2020 18:44
by richhickey
Joined on Wed, Nov 01 2017, Posts 53

Originally Posted by: assagai Go to Quoted Post

Will Synchron player ever get user definable values for controllers like VIPRO has?

I understand the use of the curve, but it involves way more guesswork/tweaking and is more unpredictable than the way the x/y axis works in VIPRO which allows for far more precision, and is one of the reasons I sometimes use VIPRO over synchron.

Also will the Synchron Player ever get a sequencer function?

Thanks

+1 please allow for more precision in dimension control! The only precise controls are keyswitches (I'll never use them) and program change (which is only useful for about 16 values - would be much better if PC could control 2 dimensions, 10s/1s as I've described elsewhere).

The current system might be fine for playing around with faders or using MIDI dump, but it's an absolute bear to make expression maps or notation rulesets.

Posted on Sun, May 31 2020 21:18
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 914

I'm not really understanding the problem here.  Can you please elaborate?  You can use a Dimension Controller for slot selection..isn't that what you're asking about instead of X/Y?  

ViPro has 2 dimensional patch selection, actually 3 dimensional if you include the matrix...and maybe more if you use A/B.  But anyway, with Synchron, you have N dimensions due to the tree approach to arranging patches..you can actually do quite a bit more than under ViPro, unless I'm missing something?

In order to use something other then a keyswitch to choose which slot from a column, then you use one of the dimension controllers, which can be CC, PC, key, velocity, etc..  all just like ViPro.

I was missing this before and someone cleared it up for me a few weeks ago...  Ben probably...

Or what am I missing?

Posted on Sun, May 31 2020 22:14
by richhickey
Joined on Wed, Nov 01 2017, Posts 53

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post

I'm not really understanding the problem here.  Can you please elaborate?  You can use a Dimension Controller for slot selection..isn't that what you're asking about instead of X/Y?  

ViPro has 2 dimensional patch selection, actually 3 dimensional if you include the matrix...and maybe more if you use A/B.  But anyway, with Synchron, you have N dimensions due to the tree approach to arranging patches..you can actually do quite a bit more than under ViPro, unless I'm missing something?

In order to use something other then a keyswitch to choose which slot from a column, then you use one of the dimension controllers, which can be CC, PC, key, velocity, etc..  all just like ViPro.

I was missing this before and someone cleared it up for me a few weeks ago...  Ben probably...

Or what am I missing?

In VI Pro you can designate a CC for an X/Y dimension and then explicitly set (arbitrary) splitpoints for the mapping to cells, e.g. split at every 10 - 0/10/20/30 even if there are only 7 cells across. Or assign the absolute min and max values to certain cells and spread out the rest, 0=first cell, 1-126=second-sixth, 127 = seventh. Explicit splits also make it possible to add cells and not break mappings.

In synchron player the mapping of CCs to slots is a product of the number of slots in the dimension and the curve selected. E.g. a straight curve will place the splits at every 128/N and the non-straight curves are pretty difficult to predict. So the straight line split for 7 slots will be every 128/7 = every 18.2857149. Quick - where are those splits? And doing things like reserving min/max etc is almost impossible. Adding slots to dimensions always breaks mappings unless you already reserved them with empty slots. Pro tip - reserve them! Padding out to 8 slots = every 16, 12 slots = every 10, 16 slots = every 8 in the CC range.

Thus synchron's is a system for human fader/knob twiddling that poorly serves expression map and notation users.

Posted on Sun, May 31 2020 22:30
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 914

hmm yea I see what you mean.  the crossover points are not shown anywhere and then if you add/remove slots to a dimension they change to some other set of unseen crossover points, which would break existing expression maps, though I guess in ViPro it breaks them too right?  If you add more Y rows to the matrix, then the crossover points all change, just like Synchron, But least you can visibly see what they are and you have the option to slide them around so that existing expressionmaps aren't broken.

The ViPro approach is more explicit.

I'd actually rather have a mode, perhaps for both players, where when you add a row to ViPro (or a slot to a dimension in Synchron Player), the first row will always be cc value=0, the second row always cc value=1, etc..  instead of evenly dividing the range, just keep adding a new row to the end as the next available CC value.

As you put it, that would be much more explicit and consistent when working with expression maps and articulation sets, but not only that, existing tracks you may have recorded with key switches in place even without expression maps and articulation sets.  

I can see how the existing method of evenly dividing the range makes sense in certain situations where you are meaning to crossfade through a range of things.  However, when using it as a patch selector, then having it be more explicit, with exactly one matching cc value per row...starting at 0...would make a lot more sense.

Posted on Sun, May 31 2020 23:34
by richhickey
Joined on Wed, Nov 01 2017, Posts 53

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post

I'd actually rather have a mode, perhaps for both players, where when you add a row to ViPro (or a slot to a dimension in Synchron Player), the first row will always be cc value=0, the second row always cc value=1, etc..  instead of evenly dividing the range, just keep adding a new row to the end as the next available CC value.

As you put it, that would be much more explicit and consistent when working with expression maps and articulation sets, but not only that, existing tracks you may have recorded with key switches in place even without expression maps and articulation sets.  

I can see how the existing method of evenly dividing the range makes sense in certain situations where you are meaning to crossfade through a range of things.  However, when using it as a patch selector, then having it be more explicit, with exactly one matching cc value per row...starting at 0...would make a lot more sense.

Yup, I already requested that, here:

https://www.vsl.co.at/community/posts/t52871-FR---Bank-Select-as-discrete-dimension-selector#post286753

Posted on Sat, Oct 30 2021 22:08
by gdugan2
Joined on Mon, Sep 08 2008, Utica, NY, Posts 79

Originally Posted by: assagai Go to Quoted Post
Will Synchron player ever get user-definable values for controllers like VIPRO has?

I have the same question/request.  I have always loved the versatility of VI Pro, and am disappointed that the same versatility is not in the Synchron Player.  I have created many matrices in VI Pro, in which the same articulation is always triggered by a specific Continuous Controller value (CC3 in my case).  For example, 50 is always sustain, 60 is always marcato, 70 is always legato, etc.  No matter the instrument, these are all the same, which provides a level of consistency that I enjoy.  I wish I could do this in Synchron Player. 

iMac 2.7 GHz Intel Core i5, OS X 10.15.7 Catalina, 16 GB RAM, PT 2021.12
Posted on Fri, Feb 25 2022 22:24
by gdugan2
Joined on Mon, Sep 08 2008, Utica, NY, Posts 79

Originally Posted by: assagai Go to Quoted Post
Will Synchron player ever get user definable values for controllers like VIPRO has?

I understand the use of the curve, but it involves way more guesswork/tweaking and is more unpredictable than the way the x/y axis works in VIPRO which allows for far more precision, and is one of the reasons I sometimes use VIPRO over synchron.

I have never liked key switches, and needing 3, 4, or even 5 key switches for a single articulation is not a comfortable way to work. I'm surprised that VSL has made something so uncomfortable, given their history of producing excellent, amazing products.

With VI Pro, I use ONE continuous controller (CC3) to change ALL articulations. I made a one-row matrix with 12 cells of the most-used articulations. I have adjusted the sliders in the matrix so that each cell is selected with a convenient CC3 value. I have made it so that, if I want the first cell, I make CC3 = 10. If I want the second cell, I make CC3 = 20. The third cell is CC3, etc. This continues up to the twelfth cell with CC3 = 120. Selecting an articulation is as easy as setting CC3 to the correct value (10, 20, 30, etc.). The matrices are the same for every instrument throughout the orchestra (with some minor exceptions). This makes things very consistent.

I am disappointed that I am not able to replicate this in the Synchron Player. I can use CC3 to change articulations, but I cannot set convenient values for each articulation (10, 20, 30, etc.). I hope they will make this a possibility in the near future.

iMac 2.7 GHz Intel Core i5, OS X 10.15.7 Catalina, 16 GB RAM, PT 2021.12
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