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Reverb options
Last post Thu, Aug 20 2020 by Beat Kaufmann, 11 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Aug 01 2020 11:12
by willie45
Joined on Fri, May 29 2020, Posts 13

Hi

I'm considering looking at a Dimension strings VI library but not sure about adding room sounds to it. Do I need to use MIRPro or can I get along with any reverb to make this work? If any reverb then please have you any suggestions or would the ones in Logic suffice?

Thank you for any help you can give me.

Posted on Sat, Aug 01 2020 12:20
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 153

For the dimension libraries the proper placement in a room is crucial (which cannot be done in Logic). But, unless you want to add non-VSL instruments into the venue or want to tweak things, MIR pro is not required. Just get one of the great MIRx venues and everything will work automatically. Being able to change venues (conveniently for the entire orchestra by simply selecting them from a menu) is probably the biggest advantage of VI(pro) compared to the Synchron player, since the venue has a dramatic impact on the sound.

In particular for the dimension strings you should also consider VI pro since this way you can access all players in one preset and it offers countless other advantages (SSD support, sequencer, ...).

Posted on Sat, Aug 01 2020 20:15
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 804

MIR makes positioning sounds in a space extremely easy. You can however use a traditional reverb, even if this will require much more work for positioning.

Logic has some excellent reverbs, including Chromeverb and Space Designer. You can add it to a bus, and then route all the individual strings to that bus. Panning will position them on the stage.

Unless you want the sound of traditional reverbs, I would suggest MIR for a natural sound and a faster setup. MIR PRO 24 can be a good way to save money, and still have the full power of MIR with a limited number of channels. You will later be able to upgrade to the full version, if needed.

Please note that VSL has a special offer each month. This month it has not yet been announced.

Paolo

Posted on Sat, Aug 01 2020 23:01
by willie45
Joined on Fri, May 29 2020, Posts 13

Thank you both for your replies. It seems MIR is the easiest by far to use and for someone of my limited skills and the MIR X rooms or 24 would probably be the best options. I need to find out about them. It does increase the price of the Vim but I will look at the various options you mentioned.

I hadn't realised that the VI libraries didn't all work with SSDs. My computer is totally SSD as are my external drives. Does this mean the standard libraries won't work in it? The pro Dimension set is a bit stretch for me and I need to consider that too. 

Thank you again.

Posted on Sun, Aug 02 2020 01:15
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 142

Willie, perfectly convincing stereo-field placement of Dimension instruments certainly can be done in Logic. It's a matter of exploiting the 1-close-dry-mic-per-instrument advantage of Dimension, and using Logic's built-in mono-to-stereo Binaural Panners on each dry single-instrument mono audio feed from the library player. (Libraries of sampled ensembles require different spatialisation treatments, but we're talking about the wonderfully flexible Dimension libraries here.) One complicating factor for this dry mono source approach is that the VI players have limited audio routing compared to the Synchronised version - but with some effort and ingenuity it can still be done.

Stereo room or hall acoustic ambiences can be readily and very flexibly simulated by applying reverb plugins to the binaurally panned instruments, either singly or in any sort of groupings you find work best for realism and/or the artistic effect you want. In this case I find using a Balance control on each reverb's stereo output can - with some crafty touches here and there - put the instruments convincingly in an acoustically live room or hall. For example, you can very simply make one stereo reverb plugin instance  emphasise (without overdoing it) left reflections for 1st violins, while another reverb instance emphasises right reflections for Cellos. Also, each reverb instance can be set up for slightly different reverb character, including use of wet/dry/predelay also, in order to simulate asymmetries in the various reflection paths, left/right and near/far.

You'll find that once you've applied binaural panning well to place your dry instruments in their various groupings, the ear really doesn't need any more convincing as to what's where in the stereo field. Reverb is then only about the shape, size and reflective character of the reverberant environment surrounding the players and audience.

Logic's own reverbs will get you going and ChromaVerb especially is a good way to start getting the hang of what can be achieved with today's algorithmic reverbs. Bear in mind scoring stages for film work typically have tails of around 1.6 to 2 seconds, whereas the tails in some large concert venues may stretch out longer. Adjusting decay time is the easy bit, compared to developing your understanding and skills in how damping profiles and pre- and post-eq profiles work together to give character to a simulated reverberant environment.

I think you'll find you'll soon be getting great results with what you already have at hand in Logic. Unless you're already a busy pro composer who has little or no off-project time to spare, I'd say it's a case of building your own knowledge, skills and experience in using the various spatialisation effects (and there's no end to it!), while of course often comparing your results as critically as you possibly can with the best examples of recorded film scores, concerts, and what have you. The Dimension libraries offer a truly excellent grounding - and they'll let you get flying sooner rather than later!

Posted on Sun, Aug 02 2020 06:20
by Kai
Joined on Sun, Dec 29 2002, Graz, Austria, Posts 153

I shouldn't have written "it cannot be done in Logic", but rather "it cannot easily be done in Logic". As Macker writes you would have to set up a dedicated reverb, or a send to a bus with a reverb for each instrument, and adjust all the reverb parameters, send levels, panning yourself - and even this way you probably could not fully simulate that different instruments have a different distance to the listener. So unless you are an audio engineer (or want to become one), it should be much harder to get the coherent sound you get out of MIR.

If you are on a budget, MIRx is by far the cheapest entry into the MIR world. You can start with a single venue which does not significantly increase the price of the dimension libraries. MIRx is directly integrated in VI pro, automatically positions the different players on stage and it can even automatically adjust the relative volumes of the different instruments, so that everything is automatically normalized and balanced and you do not have to care about any of these (technical) aspects.

Also the standard Vienna Instruments Player does support SSDs. However, the pro version allows you to dial how much of the samples are loaded into RAM and this way you will only need a small fraction when using a fast SSD. With around 300GB of sample data dimension strings are very demanding when it comes to RAM usage, so this makes a big difference. But this is only one of many advantages VI pro offers. The dimension libraries do not contain any recorded phrases, like trills, runs or arpeggios. With the sequencer in VI pro you get all of these in various versions and in contrast to sampled phrases they can even sync to Logic's tempo. Yet, the biggest advantage is that VI pro offers more slots per cell, so you can have section presets that include all players of a section, instead of having to record each player individually. Via the humanize feature VI pro can automatically add randomness to each player (delay & tuning). These small imperfections, in combination with each player being properly positioned on stage, yield very realistic results even when recording a whole section at once.

Posted on Sun, Aug 02 2020 06:36
by PaoloT
Joined on Tue, Dec 27 2016, Posts 804

MIRx is inexpensive, but keep in mind that it will not offer a discount if upgrading to the full MIR. Also consider how the full MIR can also effectively be used for other sound sources, blending different sources (including live recordings) in the same space.

It is expensive (carefully choose your preferred room pack!), but at the time I spent the same for one of those old "inexpensive" hardware reverbs!

Paolo

Posted on Sun, Aug 02 2020 20:36
by willie45
Joined on Fri, May 29 2020, Posts 13

I appreciate the clarifications.

I'm going to sit on my decision for now as I'm not sure I have the necessary skills to use Logic reverb effectively and I am beginning to feel the synchros-ized versions might be easier for me. I'm pretty new to VSL and it's taking a bit of getting used to just the Synchron player I am using at the moment compared to Kontakt. I feel to add VI plus a reverb might be a bit more than I'm looking to do right now.

Thank you.

Posted on Sun, Aug 02 2020 23:16
by Macker
Joined on Tue, Aug 21 2018, London, Posts 142

Good thinking, Willie. I'm betting you'll do well in whichever paths you choose. Refreshing to hear good sense like yours.

Posted on Mon, Aug 03 2020 09:55
by jasensmith
Joined on Tue, Jan 15 2008, Arizona, Posts 1578

You may want to look into Vienna Suite and/or Vienna Suite Pro which is another VSL product.

https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software_Package/Vienna_Suite_PRO

There are two reverb options with VS, you have the Convolution Reverb which has a nice set of presets and you have the Hybrid Reverb which combines impulse verbs with algorithmic.  What I like about VS reverbs is you have so much control over every aspect of the reverb like EQ, color, panning etc.

In addition you get a bunch of other goodies like EQ, Power Panning, Compressor, Limiter, Imager (Pro Version)Just about everything has presets which are nice starting points.

I absolutely adore the Vienna Suite/pro

I just remixed and mastered everything I've ever recorded with the suite and had an absolute blast doing it.

And if that wasn't enough you can try Vienna Suite /Pro for free Just request a 30 day demo license.


"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it."
- W.C. Fields
Posted on Thu, Aug 20 2020 21:56
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1727

Originally Posted by: willie45 Go to Quoted Post

Do I need to use MIRPro or can I get along with any reverb to make this work?

If any reverb then please have you any suggestions or would the ones in Logic suffice?

Thank you for any help you can give me.

Before MIR and MIRx were on the market we all mixed everything in a conventional way - and the results were by no means worse. The question, if you need MIR-Products or not, can therefore be answered with NO.

If you only use the dimension strings as a sample, it's enough to use a normal reverb (one of the DAWs) and possibly use the panner to distribute the individual strings from left to right in the stereo channels.
 
If you want to produce a whole orchestra with samples, it is necessary to place the instruments in different depths as well. This requires a certain know-how how to achieve this with reverb plug-ins. Because many composers don't really want this mixing, sample providers have started to integrate the room positions in the samples. VSL has developed the MIR products for this purpose.

If you want to do the mix yourself there is the VSL Effect SUITE which contains every effect you need to do such mixing tasks. But you can also try it with tools of the DAW.
What you have to do is shown in the following video on the topic "REVERB APPROACH"...

-----------------------------------------

The videos show that obviously many, many skills are required from the individual sample to the finished orchestra production: From dealing with the DAW, to all midi issues, to mixing the audio tracks and finally to the finished orchestral sound... a lot of knowledge has to be acquired. That's why beginners are often disappointed because their own music doesn't sound like the demos. That's also why it can be helpful at the beginning, if certain production steps are taken over from you... e.g. with the MIR products.

But again: If you only use (dimension-) strings the reverb of the DAW is sufficient.

All the best and a lot of success

Beat
 
 


www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
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