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SYNC STRINGS PRO: issue with agile legato of Violins
Last post Fri, Apr 09 2021 by Paul, 13 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Nov 18 2020 16:40
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 297

 

Hello Paul and dear VSL-users mates, 

first of all I take the chance to say I really loved the SynStringsPro, great improvement, lovable and clever library.

Unfortunately I have a problem with the agile legato patch of Violins (both 14 and 10) that I would like to investigate:

- playing fast with the patch, a strange out-of-tune layer is audible over the normal sound, sounding like if the legato-transition samples (the short "swipes") were mapped differently from sustain samples (like half a tone up or similar). This is very audible if you play a trill or similar fast repetitive pattern.

- other instruments (eg. agile legato violas or cellos) work totally fine, as the normal legato for all instruments including Violins.

I updated today to last SSP setup but according notes, it didn't seem to address agile legato, so actually nothing changed.

Anybody else got the problem, and perhaps found a fix? Any VSL recommendation or known fix?

I can provide sound example and system set-up to support if this will be rated as new/unknown.

Thank you in advance, Best Regards

FV

Posted on Wed, Nov 18 2020 17:09
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12639

Hi FV, 

Please send a quick example, best with a MIDI file or sequencer project, to , we will check it out!

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Nov 19 2020 10:08
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 297

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

Hi FV, 

Please send a quick example, best with a MIDI file or sequencer project, to , we will check it out!

Best,
Paul

Thank you Paul, done.

Files attached below as well.

File Attachment(s):
ViolinsU0020LegatoU0020AgileU0020WEIRDU0020SOUND.mp3 (180kb) downloaded 65 time(s).
ViolasU0020LegatoU0020AgileU0020OK.mp3 (180kb) downloaded 36 time(s).
SyncPlayerPatch.png (3,918kb) downloaded 14 time(s).
MIDI.mid.zip (1kb) downloaded 2 time(s).

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Posted on Thu, Nov 19 2020 11:48
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12639

Hi, 

Thanks. What you hear is the side-effect of this type of articulation. We have recorded longer quick phrases and extracted the transitions, which may also include a ringing decay of previous notes. 

These articulations are designed for very quick passages, which are usually also not played 100% clean, in real life.  Under scrutiny, you will hear the side effect and you can point it out as a mistake... but there is no other way we know of to get this kind of result. Trills will always be tricky when played without performance trills (quick legato transitions with a round robin of transition options). 

In other words: It's not a bug, it's a feature!

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Apr 01 2021 18:21
by Christian R.
Joined on Sun, Feb 16 2020, Posts 8

Hi, I purchased today also the Synchron Strings Pro and I noticed also the very unpleasant "feature" in the Agile Legato: I hear always a sound one Major or Minor third down off the real played note, as if it was chosen the wrong sample to make the legato transition... It sounds really bad, also playing fast passage (that is the articulation designed for): you can really hear notes that are not being played (as I mentioned: a major or minor third down)..... This is a little a deal breaker for me, because I need some faster transitions for my legatos (using Agile Legato) but if it sounds like wrong notes, thank no thank you.

I attach one sound example.

I hope that there is a solution to use agile legatos without this wrong sounding notes. Thank you for your Support

Christian Ruvolo

File Attachment(s):
SynchronU0020StringsU0020ProU0020AgileU0020legatoU0020Glitch.mp3 (282kb) downloaded 47 time(s).

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Posted on Fri, Apr 02 2021 07:57
by fatis12_24918
Joined on Sat, Dec 16 2006, Posts 297

 

I had to stop using the patch (and found my self back to Dimension strings, even if I love the sound of SSP).

Actually I'm not convinced by the explanation I got from support (unavoidable echo of the room embedded into samples, so no way to edit it), because if only the feed from ambience and release were the unavoidable issue, then it should affect the other instruments also, and they are unaffected instead.

On the other side, if it was just wrong mapping of the legato transition samples, or scripting bug, I suppose the fine developers of VSL team had fixed it after a while... so it's still a mystery to me.

 

The pity is that violins are of course the prominent voice, and then the artefact is very invasive/audible.

(The development team by the way was working under pressure on a disruptive massive set of projects in a relatively short time... so perhaps sooner or later they will find time for fine tuning previous jobs... I still hope in a fix. )

Posted on Fri, Apr 02 2021 13:14
by Christian R.
Joined on Sun, Feb 16 2020, Posts 8

The problem appears to me in all sections of the strings: as soon as you use the  Legato Agile very weird sounds come between the notes. It makes the Library for me unusable. :-(

I attach another example (audio and notes) for the Issue.

File Attachment(s):
VSSPU0020vn1U0020ks.wav (2,181kb) downloaded 42 time(s).
Legato-Agile-Problem.jpg (296kb) downloaded 16 time(s).

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Posted on Fri, Apr 02 2021 15:03
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12639

Hi Christian R., 

I'm afraid those are the remains of the approach we used for this specific articulation, where the tail of notes that were played earlier are still ringing with some transitions. Depending on the key you are in, this can be problematic. 

Sorry to have no immediate solution for that. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Apr 02 2021 20:23
by Christian R.
Joined on Sun, Feb 16 2020, Posts 8

Hi Paul,

thank you for your reply :-)

I'm testing the Library all day long. I understand the technical background for the issue. It happens unfortunately in all keys. And I found out that the issue ("fremde Noten") is in all instruments with Legato Agile articulation, but tends to be less hearable going down in the instrument sections (less in vn2 than in vn1, less in vla than in vn2 an so on).

It is a pity because I'm loving the sound and the incredible deepness of control of the library for the rest. But if there are no hoping about a possible fixing of the Legato Agile I'm afraid I have make a return because fast legato is very important for me. :-(

Happy Holidays and stay safe

Christian

Posted on Mon, Apr 05 2021 12:31
by Ben
Joined on Sat, Mar 06 2021, Los Angeles, Posts 40

Hi Christian,

In my experience you can use the regular legato even for most fast passages, and the agile legato for very fast passages - in these cases the "ringing" is no longer an issue and even adds to the realism of the sound.
You can also tweak the auto-speed controller in the CONTROL tab to switch to the agile legato variant at higher speeds.

Best, Ben

Ben @VSL
Posted on Wed, Apr 07 2021 16:28
by belkina
Joined on Sun, Jun 13 2004, Montreal, Posts 470

Just want to add my voice to this request. I also have this problem, but on a few notes and velocity XFade settings. I do hope it will be fixed eventually, especially since the VI libraries had a fast legato without this problem ...

Thanks,

Alan

Posted on Fri, Apr 09 2021 09:12
by slidehawk
Joined on Fri, Jan 12 2007, Posts 15

Originally Posted by: belkina Go to Quoted Post

... especially since the VI libraries had a fast legato without this problem ...

Also the Synchron Strings I and other Synchronizeds don‘t have these artefacts.

Kind Regards, Gunter

File Attachment(s):
SychronU0020StringsU0020I.mp3 (276kb) downloaded 6 time(s).
SychronU0020StringsU0020Pro.mp3 (276kb) downloaded 4 time(s).
SychronizedU0020ChamberU0020Strings.mp3 (276kb) downloaded 5 time(s).
SychronizedU0020SoloU0020Strings.mp3 (276kb) downloaded 4 time(s).

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Posted on Fri, Apr 09 2021 09:14
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12639

Hi everybody, 

It's a new approach, and it is what it is.
The lingering previous notes cannot be "edited" out, so feel free to use this patch where appropriate. 

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
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