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Synchron pianos, "unrealistic" attack for soft playing?
Last post Fri, Mar 19 2021 by Snoopy10, 16 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Feb 06 2021 22:57
by dlmn
Joined on Thu, Feb 03 2011, Posts 5

Hi all

I tried the Synchron 280VC, CFX, Imperial, D-274 and the Upright. The issue is that in my ears the attack is by far to hard for soft playing. I compared some sounds with real recordings and never heard this kind of "ping" on the attack in the middle area of the keybaord (lows end highs tones are great). 

I use a VPC1 and tried almost everything possible with the velocity curves, midi settings etc. Until now the Upright is by far the only Library that sounds realistic for me regarding the attack and overtones (but it's not a grand unfortunately :)).

However, the Upright has a LOT of noise! And the 280VC also has some really loud noises at some keys I never heard on a piano when playing with it. I own the 2011 Vienna Bösendorfer Imperial and there is no such noise. What a pity.

Don't get me wrong. It's not about blaming at all... just frustration. Because the Libraries sound really great in general.

Any hints on this? Anyone else facing the same issues, or it's just me? :)

Thank you!

Posted on Sun, Feb 07 2021 00:24
by stephen limbaugh
Joined on Tue, Feb 23 2016, Los Angeles, Posts 270

Try the 274 with this preset:

File Attachment(s):
Steinway-Limbaugh.vsynpreset.zip (8kb) downloaded 30 time(s).

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2019 MacBook Pro, 8 core i9, 32gb RAM. Heavy Digital Audio PC slave, 6 core Xeon E5-1650, 128gb RAM. Logic 10.4.8. Mojave & Windows 10.
Posted on Sun, Feb 07 2021 12:55
by dlmn
Joined on Thu, Feb 03 2011, Posts 5

Originally Posted by: stephen limbaugh Go to Quoted Post

Try the 274 with this preset:

Thank you for your post and suggestion! Unfortunately, I don't own the 274 anymore. I gave up during the trial period. I still have the Synchron Upright, Vienna Imperial and the 280VC.

Posted on Mon, Feb 08 2021 12:09
by buz1984
Joined on Tue, Nov 26 2019, Posts 16

Does it help to drop the Dynamic knob a bit?

Of course it limits the expression but for something gentle it seems closer to what you'd hear recorded.

Posted on Mon, Feb 08 2021 12:16
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12606

Hi dlmn, 

How about posting some examples that illustrate your frustration? Of course with a quick description of your settings (or presets, if you have not altered them).

This way, we're all on the same page. You can also send those files or sequencer projects directly to us:

Which recordings are you comparing our pianos with?

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sun, Feb 21 2021 18:45
by dlmn
Joined on Thu, Feb 03 2011, Posts 5

Hi Stephen

It really seems that the 280VC doesn't fit for me. That's why I gave the D-274 a second chance. 

Thank you for the preset. Just amazing. Exactly what I was looking for!! 

I played also the timbre setting with -1 just for fun. With that applied, there are some crackles sometimes (not due to the CPU) I never heard before. Is that something that you also encountered?

Have a great Monday!

Cheers, Daniel

Posted on Sun, Feb 21 2021 18:47
by dlmn
Joined on Thu, Feb 03 2011, Posts 5

Originally Posted by: buz1984 Go to Quoted Post

Does it help to drop the Dynamic knob a bit?

Of course it limits the expression but for something gentle it seems closer to what you'd hear recorded.

Thanks for the hint. Unfortunately I could not get rid of that sound character.

Posted on Mon, Feb 22 2021 23:10
by KevinMe
Joined on Sun, May 10 2020, Posts 17

I have this experience as well. I was frustrated with the Bösendorfer Imperial BI for this reason and when I bought the VC280 it felt worse. I decided to spend more time playing with the settings to try and work this out. Something I noticed was that the ambient preset didn’t seem to suffer from the issue, but it also has a lot of computed reverb applied, so only appropriate for a subset of music I like to play.

with the computed reverb turned off the pinging was still not an issue. This provided a clue.

What I found that does help is when you are mixing the close mics with any other mic types, if you add some delay to the other mic types in the mixing page this pinging can be silenced. It does add some natural reverb. But what I think is happening is it stops the sound of the attack from the close mic being overlayed with the sound of the attack from the other mic types.

so you need to balance how much of the natural reverb sound you are adding with the delay against reducing the pinging effect.

Posted on Tue, Feb 23 2021 20:09
by Snoopy10
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2019, Stuttgart, Posts 24

Hi,

Give us an example. Please send us a preset setting so that we can hear for ourselves how it works.

 

Thanks

Georgy
Posted on Wed, Feb 24 2021 19:51
by Snoopy10
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2019, Stuttgart, Posts 24

[quote = KevinMe; 302382]

Ich habe diese Erfahrung auch. Aus diesem Grund war ich mit dem Bösendorfer Imperial BI frustriert und als ich den VC280 kaufte, fühlte es sich schlimmer an. Ich beschloss, mehr Zeit damit zu verbringen, mit den Einstellungen zu spielen, um dies herauszufinden. Mir ist aufgefallen, dass das Ambient-Preset nicht unter dem Problem zu leiden schien, aber es wurde auch viel berechneter Hall angewendet, sodass es nur für eine Teilmenge von Musik geeignet ist, die ich gerne spiele.

Bei ausgeschaltetem Reverb war das Ping immer noch kein Problem. Dies lieferte einen Hinweis.

Ich habe festgestellt, dass dies hilfreich ist, wenn Sie die Nahmikrofone mit anderen Mikrofontypen mischen. Wenn Sie den anderen Mikrofontypen auf der Mischseite eine gewisse Verzögerung hinzufügen, kann dieser Ping-Vorgang stummgeschaltet werden. Es fügt etwas natürlichen Hall hinzu. Ich denke jedoch, dass der Sound des Angriffs vom Nahmikrofon nicht mit dem Sound des Angriffs der anderen Mikrofontypen überlagert wird.

Sie müssen also ausgleichen, wie viel natürlichen Hallklang Sie mit der Verzögerung hinzufügen, um den Ping-Effekt nicht zu verringern.

[/Zitat]

 

Hi,

Give us an example. Please send us a preset setting so that we can hear for ourselves how it works.

 

 

Thanks

Georgy
Posted on Fri, Feb 26 2021 17:53
by KevinMe
Joined on Sun, May 10 2020, Posts 17

Nice to see my own writing translated. It helps to know what i wrote to understand it. 

Here are my settings. These are the ones I used for my most recent recordings and re-doing some of my recordings here, the first 5 in the list are recorded using the new settings. I hope this helps. Bösendorfer Imperial playlist

Play =================

Reverb -16 (though this global reverb is off on the mix page)
Volume 0
Dynamic 140%
Body 10%
Sympathetic -1.42 dB

MIDI Sensitivity 0
Half pedal 50%
Pedal noise -31.62 dB
Key Rel. Noise -23 dB

Mix  =================
Only enabled channels mentioned.

Ribbon Vol 2, no delay, Equaliser on with a HF suppression from about 1kHz of about -8dB.
Mid 2 Vol 0.6, delay enabled of 15. Equaliser is off.
Main vol 1.2, delay enabled of 24.4. Equaliser on with a HF sloping suppression from about 2kHz to about -5dB.

Reverb is off.

Edit =================
Max voices per mic 161
Max voices per key 12
RS Level -6.05.
Other values I think are default.

Posted on Sun, Feb 28 2021 21:27
by Snoopy10
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2019, Stuttgart, Posts 24

Hello Kevin,

thank you for your settings. Why did you make it so difficult for yourself. You could have just saved the preset and uploaded it here. That would be easier for you and also for everyone else who wants to try it out. Maybe you can try it once

From the looks of it, you are very rarely here, too bad.

I wanted to try your settings, but it looks like you have the full version of the 280VC. In the normal version there is unfortunately kien Ribbon Mic.

Sorry if my English is not quite correct...:-) I always translate with Deepl..

Georgy
Posted on Thu, Mar 11 2021 19:50
by Snoopy10
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2019, Stuttgart, Posts 24

Hello Paul,

since the new version with the attack and velocity functions is available, you can adjust this quite well. However, I havenow noticed that this extreme attack effect is back when the pedal is depressed. This makes playing quietly extremely difficult. I do not mean the volume, but really only the attack, wich comes very hard when you press the button only slightly down. Can you possibly still make adjustments?


 
Georgy
Posted on Fri, Mar 12 2021 17:05
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12606

Hi Georgy, 

Can you please send me a quick example as a sequencer file, to check?

Best,
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Mon, Mar 15 2021 08:16
by dlmn
Joined on Thu, Feb 03 2011, Posts 5

Originally Posted by: Paul Go to Quoted Post

Hi dlmn, 

How about posting some examples that illustrate your frustration? Of course with a quick description of your settings (or presets, if you have not altered them).

This way, we're all on the same page. You can also send those files or sequencer projects directly to us:

Which recordings are you comparing our pianos with?

Best,
Paul

Hi Paul

Thank you for the feedback you sent me. I invested some time to figure out why some frequencies were so annoying. One important factor were the (rather old) headphones I was using. They seem to have a relatively high boost at 4kHz and 7.5 kHz. The boost of about 10db at 7.5 kHz partially explains the loud noise in my setup. However, I still think the Upright has too much noise compared to other plugins i.e. the D-274 which is very quite in that regard. 

Cheers,

Daniel

Posted on Fri, Mar 19 2021 16:22
by Snoopy10
Joined on Sun, Dec 22 2019, Stuttgart, Posts 24

Hi Paul and Andreas,

thanks for your effort Paul and Andreas. You were indeed right. It is only the volume and not the attack that gets louder. After further tests, I also noticed that. 

Georgy
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