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MOTU Digital Performer 11
Last post Sun, Aug 15 2021 by Bross, 18 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Jul 13 2021 23:37
by Gone To Lunch
Joined on Mon, Jul 12 2010, Posts 63

The new MOTU DP 11 features articulation maps.

Do they work with Vienna Instruments?

Posted on Wed, Jul 14 2021 08:03
by Paul
Joined on Sat, Aug 03 2002, Vienna, Posts 12789

Hi, 

We didn't have time to check it yet, but I heard that if you use the VST3 version of our Synchron Player, this will work. 

I'm currently waiting for a quick overview video from Steve Steele who can tell us more about this!

Best, 
Paul

Paul Kopf
Product Manager - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Jul 14 2021 19:04
by Gone To Lunch
Joined on Mon, Jul 12 2010, Posts 63

I don't have Synchron libraries, I use the older instruments in Vienna Instruments Pro - will they work with the DP 11 articulation maps ?

Posted on Wed, Jul 14 2021 20:02
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work with all VSL instruments, including MAS, VST2, AU, VST3.  I am testing out the DP11 demo now I will try some of the VSL plugins shortly and report back.

Posted on Wed, Jul 14 2021 20:20
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783

Did a quick test with Synchron.AU and Articulation Map works as intended.  Running out the door now, will test more later

Posted on Thu, Jul 15 2021 08:49
by gulliverity
Joined on Tue, Dec 01 2020, Posts 3

Not working on an M1 mac, though. Even if you force DP11 to open in Rosetta mode (otherwise MAS and VST plug-ins will not load), trying to apply an Articulation Map to an instrument via Synchron Player generates a pop-up: "This articulation is too complicated to perform." By the way, these are the VSL maps (cubase format imported into DP11) for Synchron Brass and Strings Pro that I was testing with.

Posted on Thu, Jul 15 2021 17:55
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783

Originally Posted by: gulliverity Go to Quoted Post

Not working on an M1 mac, though. Even if you force DP11 to open in Rosetta mode (otherwise MAS and VST plug-ins will not load), trying to apply an Articulation Map to an instrument via Synchron Player generates a pop-up: "This articulation is too complicated to perform." By the way, these are the VSL maps (cubase format imported into DP11) for Synchron Brass and Strings Pro that I was testing with.

Can you please attach the articulation map you were trying to use that resulted in that error message?  I haven't seen that yet.

Most likely your expression map was using multiple groups or something like that...DP Articulation Maps do not support multiple expression map groups...  maybe something else.  Attach the expression map you are trying to import and we can comment more.  DP is not fully compatible with cubase expression maps!  But its a nice convenience that you can import single-group expression maps.  Not sure what other aspects of expression maps would not be able to import correctly into DP...that is the only issue that comes to my mind so far.

Posted on Fri, Jul 16 2021 20:24
by gulliverity
Joined on Tue, Dec 01 2020, Posts 3

Never mind my previous post. I don't know why I get the error pop-up, but I can ignore it now. I had thought that "remap" in the Articulation Maps window was the method of applying the new articulation. Oops! One has to choose "Set Articulation" in the Region menu instead.

Thank God I stumbled across Massimo Sammi's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe2Qr1kxzwQ

The map I was using is the stock one from the VSL downloads area: Cubase: Expression Maps Synchron Strings Pro v.1.0.  Now that I know how to work it, will consider the Cubase maps just released for DP11 by BabylonWaves.

Posted on Fri, Jul 16 2021 23:57
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783

yea its still not clear to many of us exactly what that Remap button does, its not mentioned in the DP11 manual anywhere that I can find.  Same goes for the Sync To VI button, not mentioned in the manual.

FYI - the Region Set Articulation command is used to assign articulations to midi events, is another way to do it rather than using the articulation lanes.  

You assign a specific articulation map to a track in the Articulation Map editor...top left corner you choose the track and then choose the map to use for that track.

Babylon Waves just released and actual DP version of everything, which I recommend rather then importing all the cubase expression maps.  They specifically made them aware of DP's notation symbols and a few little things...so they are better then merely importing cubase expression maps would be.  They are taking the most advantage of DP as possible with the same BW concept of same input switches mapping to various output switches.

As far as I know, none of their expression maps are using the ExpressionMaps group feature that I mentioned before.  That will not work as expected in DP if you try to import one of those into DP.

Posted on Mon, Jul 19 2021 21:24
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92

Here's my video that Paul mentioned. It explains Dynamic Mapping and all related features.

The video is in 4k. YouTube should have the compressed high res version available to watch by the time you see this message.

https://youtu.be/Vo8lNeOfVpw

Here's a transcript from the video.

  1. VST3 - To take advantage of Dynamic Mapping you must load the VST3 version of a supported instrument. Here I’ve loaded VSL’s Synchron Player. 
  2. New Map - Choose Instrument with Options and select Vienna Synchron Player, … open the MIDI editor, … select Articulation Maps Setup from the Project menu or the mini-menu,… and load a preset from the instrument. Click on New Map. 
  3. The New Map Setup message appears. After clicking Yes the Synchron Player sends an articulation list to DP11 which generates a map complete with Output Mapping. The entire Articulation Map can be edited and altered to your liking. 
  4. Sync To VI - Click Sync to VI,… change presets in the Synchron Player,… the Sync Map message appears. You can choose to create a New Map or update the current Map. You can change presets as many times as you want, and a new map will automatically become available.
  5. Auto Remote Setup - Generated articulation maps include a complete Articulation list with Output Mapping. Remotes are left blank. Digital a Performer gives you two options for easily creating remotes. In the global folder, find and select the newly generated map labeled, “untitled map”. Right click and choose Auto Setup Remotes.
  6. Remotes Keys - The enharmonic notes in the Remote list are flats except for the F#. DP11 defaults to this spelling. To change this, change the key in the conductor track. Try selecting F# Major, clicking on an articulation alters the enharmonic notes to reflect the new key signature. Changing the key alters the enharmonic notes to reflect that new key signature.
  7. MIDI Learn - The 2nd option for creating remotes allows you to manually customize remotes quickly by selecting Midi Learn. Click on any of the areas that are highlighted, and it will glow blue. Play a Note on your Midi keyboard, move a continuous controller, or send a Program Change. These incoming Midi event Messages will be understood and stored after clicking End Learn.
  8. Note Color - By right clicking on Notes in the Track Selector you can choose the color of the MIDI notes in the piano roll. Options are 
    - event color - track color - midi channel color - or articulation color. You can also choose a custom event color.
  9. Set Articulation - Highlight a note in the MIDI editor and select Set Articulation in the Region menu. The Set Articulation window opens and the mapped articulation list is displayed. Here you can change articulations on a Per Note basis. This menu also appears in the: - Information Bar - the Event Information Window - and the Event List window. 
  10. Flush Articulation - The Flush Articulations command is a very powerful command. With a single click the articulation list along with the output mapping will be converted to MIDI Event Messages which are displayed in the Event List. 
  11. Remap - Use outputs to convert track events to articulation maps. By Click, Holding and Dragging Articulations you can change their order.

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Tue, Jul 20 2021 00:29
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783

Hey that's pretty exciting....

The Sync to VI feature....  is that using VST3 tech or is it the same Sound Variation tech that was introduced in Studio One v5?

Posted on Tue, Jul 20 2021 01:37
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92
Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post
Hey that's pretty exciting....
The Sync to VI feature.... is that using VST3 tech or is it the same Sound Variation tech that was introduced in Studio One v5?


The thing that MOTU did that was quite smart, IMO, is that they adopted Steinberg’s VST API for Expression Maps, and Studio One’s
VST API for Dynamic Mapping (part of Sound Variations), and combined them together. Not only that, they added some new features not found in either technology and bypassed some of the limitations (output mapping that is sync’d can be altered, etc..).

In my opinion, MOTU not having the resources of some of these other companies, was wise to adopt existing technologies and not re-invent the wheel, (so to speak).

DP11 also supports MIDI 2.0 and MPE.

All in all, good timing and smart moves on MOTU’s part. Not everything needs to be developed in house. It’s often a win for the end user when developers support 3rd party open APIs. DP11 is a tremendous step in the right direction, IMO.

Regards,
Steve Steele
MOTU Beta Tester and Template Designer
https://www.stevesteele.com
Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Tue, Jul 20 2021 02:23
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783

That all sounds great, but can you please explain that a little more...??

Since they adapted "part of" the Sound Variation tech, are you saying that any Sample instrument using Sound Variations in the instrument will be able to transmit the map to DP's articulation map?

Secondly, you said something about Steinberg's protocol, that has actually been part of VST since a long time ago already, but as far as I know the only people that ever made any instruments utilizing that part of VST3 were Steinberg themselves..  What is the implication of what you said about them using some aspect of VST3 expression  maps?

What's the bottom line?  what is this going to work with?  Obviously it works great with Synchron as you demo'd and I'm super excited about that...but did VSL have to do anything special or did that function automatically since MOTU embraced, at least partially, the Sound Variations API which VSL had already added to Synchron a while back?

I'm more interested in the bottom line, what is DP going to interact with successfully?  I don't care that much about the internals.  Will this only work with VST3 instruments?  Will it only work with VST3 instruments that are using Sound Variations?  What is the bottom line in terms of instruments we might use that with?

The next question then becomes, how we can use VePro with Sound Variations.  I guess Sound Variations can't get transmitted from VePro back out to the DAW yet in any case...plus...the best VePro plugin to use with DP is the MAS version...so...if this is relying on VST3 in some way, then its a moot point.  Just asking..

Really glad to see that someone is getting onboard some of these technologies finally though...

Posted on Wed, Jul 21 2021 15:08
by mikeheels
Joined on Thu, May 21 2015, Posts 37

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your explanation.

Do you reckon the "Sync to VI" for the Synchron player works when samples are hosted inside Vienna Ensemble as well?

I know this doesn't work for sound variations in Studio One at the moment.

 

I'm impressed by MOTU in this instance and happy they developed such a great system.

I still feel Studio One has a little advantage as in you can right-click any note and apply an articulation from a menu there, which is very quick and useful. But that's just my personal experience.

 

Best regards

-m

 

 

Originally Posted by: Steve Steele Go to Quoted Post

Here's my video that Paul mentioned. It explains Dynamic Mapping and all related features.

The video is in 4k. YouTube should have the compressed high res version available to watch by the time you see this message.

https://youtu.be/Vo8lNeOfVpw

Here's a transcript from the video.

  1. VST3 - To take advantage of Dynamic Mapping you must load the VST3 version of a supported instrument. Here I’ve loaded VSL’s Synchron Player. 
  2. New Map - Choose Instrument with Options and select Vienna Synchron Player, … open the MIDI editor, … select Articulation Maps Setup from the Project menu or the mini-menu,… and load a preset from the instrument. Click on New Map. 
  3. The New Map Setup message appears. After clicking Yes the Synchron Player sends an articulation list to DP11 which generates a map complete with Output Mapping. The entire Articulation Map can be edited and altered to your liking. 
  4. Sync To VI - Click Sync to VI,… change presets in the Synchron Player,… the Sync Map message appears. You can choose to create a New Map or update the current Map. You can change presets as many times as you want, and a new map will automatically become available.
  5. Auto Remote Setup - Generated articulation maps include a complete Articulation list with Output Mapping. Remotes are left blank. Digital a Performer gives you two options for easily creating remotes. In the global folder, find and select the newly generated map labeled, “untitled map”. Right click and choose Auto Setup Remotes.
  6. Remotes Keys - The enharmonic notes in the Remote list are flats except for the F#. DP11 defaults to this spelling. To change this, change the key in the conductor track. Try selecting F# Major, clicking on an articulation alters the enharmonic notes to reflect the new key signature. Changing the key alters the enharmonic notes to reflect that new key signature.
  7. MIDI Learn - The 2nd option for creating remotes allows you to manually customize remotes quickly by selecting Midi Learn. Click on any of the areas that are highlighted, and it will glow blue. Play a Note on your Midi keyboard, move a continuous controller, or send a Program Change. These incoming Midi event Messages will be understood and stored after clicking End Learn.
  8. Note Color - By right clicking on Notes in the Track Selector you can choose the color of the MIDI notes in the piano roll. Options are 
    - event color - track color - midi channel color - or articulation color. You can also choose a custom event color.
  9. Set Articulation - Highlight a note in the MIDI editor and select Set Articulation in the Region menu. The Set Articulation window opens and the mapped articulation list is displayed. Here you can change articulations on a Per Note basis. This menu also appears in the: - Information Bar - the Event Information Window - and the Event List window. 
  10. Flush Articulation - The Flush Articulations command is a very powerful command. With a single click the articulation list along with the output mapping will be converted to MIDI Event Messages which are displayed in the Event List. 
  11. Remap - Use outputs to convert track events to articulation maps. By Click, Holding and Dragging Articulations you can change their order.

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com



Mac Pro 2013 6-core 64 GB Ram
OSX 10.15.6
Motu M4
Posted on Sat, Jul 31 2021 08:05
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92

Originally Posted by: mikeheels Go to Quoted Post

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your explanation.

Do you reckon the "Sync to VI" for the Synchron player works when samples are hosted inside Vienna Ensemble as well?

I know this doesn't work for sound variations in Studio One at the moment.

 

I'm impressed by MOTU in this instance and happy they developed such a great system.

I still feel Studio One has a little advantage as in you can right-click any note and apply an articulation from a menu there, which is very quick and useful. But that's just my personal experience.

 

Best regards

-m

Mike,

I apologize for the slow replies. I'm swamped over here. 

1. According to Paul, VSL is working on an update to VEP that will allow Sync to VI to "sync" through VEP. Right now though, it only works with a VST3 version of Synchron Player when hosted in your DAW, (DP11 or Studio One 5.2).

2. The API that MOTU is using for DP11 is the same API as Studio One's Dynamic Mapping API. 

3. I wanted and pushed for DP to have a "right-click" contextual menu for selecting articulations (like Studio One and Logic), but I got "out voted" I guess. :) Some beta testers said they saw no reason for that. I agree with you, but whatever...

Of all of the DAWs, my favorite application of articulations is Logic's, (although their Articulation Sets window is horrid - there's no Save.. button in the GUI! Apple breaks their own Human Interface Guidelines more than developers. It's crazy. But their Remote implementation is excellent). I like DP11's and Studio One's Articulation Maps and Sound Variation's window, (especially Sound Variation's "Activation Sequence" - very good approach). Some mixture of Studio One's Sound Variations, Logic's Articulation Sets and DP11's Articulation Maps Setup would be optimal.

All in all I think MOTU did an excellent job. Adopting Expression Maps and Dynamic Maps was smart, IMO. And they added some features that others don't have. You can edit the Output Mapping after Syncing to VI, unlike Cubase. There are extra articulations in the score editor that Cubase doesn't have. And as bad as DP's score editor is, it BLOWS away Cubase's, (sorry Cubase fans). Logic and Studio One's score editors are excellent. Integrating Notion into Studio One was very smart. I use Finale primarily, but I also use Notion and Notion iOS, (and Dorico), so I'm very familiar with it. I wish MOTU would buy Finale (or the other way around), and combine the two! That's my unrealistic dream.

While MOTU left Groups out, (which I'm fine with), they also simplified some things about the Articulation Maps workflow that I really like.

I hope that helps for now. After the upcoming MOTU Webinar next week (I'm the guest and will be doing a deep dive on Articulation Maps and Dynamic Mapping), I can say a lot more.  

Till then!

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Sat, Jul 31 2021 16:45
by Dewdman42
Joined on Tue, Feb 27 2018, Posts 783
Aside from Apple’s crappy articulation set editor, I’m curious what specific reasons you have for liking Logicpro’s articulation management the best?

I have also been messing around with the articulation management in all the daws you mentioned for quite some time, especially logicpro more then any as it has been my primary daw until recently; I am in the process of changing over to DP now that it has articulation management of any kind, not that it’s articulation management is any better per say, it has deficiencies also, they all do. But chunks and v-racks are just too good to pass up. I’m DP-bound for sure now.

But anyway what specifically about logicpro’s articulation management do you think makes it the best? They all have some pros and cons I can’t really call any of them the best in this regard.
Posted on Mon, Aug 02 2021 09:38
by Steve Steele
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 92

Originally Posted by: Dewdman42 Go to Quoted Post
Aside from Apple’s crappy articulation set editor, I’m curious what specific reasons you have for liking Logicpro’s articulation management the best?

I have also been messing around with the articulation management in all the daws you mentioned for quite some time, especially logicpro more then any as it has been my primary daw until recently; I am in the process of changing over to DP now that it has articulation management of any kind, not that it’s articulation management is any better per say, it has deficiencies also, they all do. But chunks and v-racks are just too good to pass up. I’m DP-bound for sure now.

But anyway what specifically about logicpro’s articulation management do you think makes it the best? They all have some pros and cons I can’t really call any of them the best in this regard.

Logic’s Remote Settings are far superior to any other DAW’s implementation, (with DP11 a close second). Logic’s remote modes, (Permanent, Momentary and Toggle - with Trigger and Retrigger), combined it’s Keyswitch View is the gold standard in remote control. The rest of Articulation Sets needs serious work, but they got the Remote section right. 

Chunks and Vracks are killer features for sure, are are the reasons I can’t leave DP. Same for Clippings. What you can do with clippings is surprising. DP11, overall, is, IMO still the best MIDI editor (when combined with VEP). I can move extremely fast in DP. MOTU needs to add a dedicated XYZ MPE lane to the continuous controller lane, but other than that DP’s MIDI editor is so clean and fast  Studio One is too busy, (and “square”).  Logic is good but a little unorganized. Cubase is very good, just not my cup of tea. These are just my opinions of course.

If I had to rate the DAWs Articulation Setup workflows I’d say that none of them are perfect but that DP and Studio One are the closest to being complete, (I’m a big fan of Dynamic Mapping). followed by Cubase’s Expression Maps, (despite the Groups and Types feature Cubase now has some catching up to do), then Logic’s Articulation Sets, (although I do like the Remote tab). I also like Logic’s overall workflow of applying articulations to notes a lot. DP11 is very similar in this way, (they both have a Event Lists, Score Editors, etc, but there’s no right-click contextual menu in DP unfortunately).

I guess I already said this but I think it was really smart of MOTU to adopt the Expression Maps and the Dynamic Mapping APIs. And I’m glad they didn’t add in some of the limitations that the other two did. Like you, I hope MOTU stays aggressive and improves Articulation Maps with some of the features being asked for. I’m certainly staying aggressive from my position  

Regards,
Steve Steele
https://www.stevesteele.com
Posted on Sun, Aug 15 2021 05:05
by Bross
Joined on Mon, Jul 06 2009, Ojai California USA, Posts 13

I cant launch DP11 without a crash when set to VST3's beware!!! Has to do with NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 2048 MB cards. Dp11 will not run with a "NVIDIA Web driver" it crashes straight up!  If you set DP11 up for AU in plugins it all seems to work. I have syncron libraries and it works, Vienna ensemble 6.5 and Vienna ensemble 7 run great too. I have not got Articulation stuff to work yet as Vienna an others use VST3 and Motu DP11 DOES NOT LIKE IT! Other Versions on DP work. I am loving Dorico and then importing to Cubase! I have not tried Dorico to MOTU DP11 yet as DP11 on my computer crashes on boot when i turn on VST3's

I run High Sierra 10.13.6

 128 GB 1333 MHz DDR3

 2 x 3.46 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon

MOTU is having a new rev of DP11 and will address all this i am sure!!!!!

Kind Regards

B

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