Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Forum Jump  
Squencer of choice for writing to picture.
Last post Sat, Jun 23 2007 by Ducasse, 29 replies.
Options
Go to last post
2 Pages12>
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2007 07:06
by Ducasse
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Posts 48
This subject came up in another thread, and I figured I would start a seperate discussion here. I am in a unique position right now having switched over from Sonar/Giga/pc to VSL and Mac. I had heard how great Logic was, and figured I 'd learn using express and then upgrade if I liked it. It is what I would expect thus far-some good, some bad. The thing that bugs me in all sequencers I have learned thus far is the grid, and the inability to write in free time, and then build a grid around it. Some have mentioned both DP and Nuendo as having tools that help with this way of working so...While not trying to start a best sequencer war, I am interested in peoples preference of sequencer when it comes to writing for picture. I really am not 100% on Logic, and have to learn a new platform anyway, so your feedback would be very helpful to me. Thank you. I am a total VSL convert!
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2007 12:24
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1157
You can write in free time in logic .. you can in any sequencer .. but at the end of the day you need really to write to a certain beat and tempo if you want the music to eventually be scored for orchestra. And if you don't want that, then it's a good idea anyways because once you start adding loads of instruments it's going to get real messy [Stick out tongue]

Personally I've always liked Cubase. The matrix editor on that is the best .. Logics comes close. On the other hand I've always preffered Pro-tools for mixing because of it's precise and clean layout. Cubase has a similar thing here where the Mixing console matches what tracks you have on the arrange screen.

Logic has many mixing pages, although I use the environment page it is an arse to set it up. However it's safe to say that Logic is a steady sequencer to which I can run the VI, and my first Edition VSL nicely. Also I have many softsynths that come with Logic and those sometimes can really count for something.

It is said the Logic 'sounds' better. But I'm not sure about this. Dietz had said this is because Logic uses 48 bit floating point next to Pro-tools 32 bit interger .. (or the other way round [Big Smile]) .. and so technically Logic should sound more musical. But I think it's down to opinion as to which is better.

I think we can all agree that we all prefer a different type of system that suits us and does what it's told. Some like using Finale .. others hate it [Big Smile] .. I would like to use Cubase 4 .. but Logic does do simiar things. Then you have the Digital Performer (Which I personally hate and can never get on with it [Stick out tongue]), and of course Pro-tools .. but that's a pain in the arse for using VI because you need to run all instruments externally .. and also the midi editor still sucks .. it's getting better but it sucks.

As for film .. well they all sync to film these days so it doesn't really matter what you use. Best thing is perhaps to try out all of these systems .. that work on your mac .. at your local pro music dealer (they usually lay on a computer that has the different sequencers running).

Last word. You will find in all the sequencers, people who can make it do amazing magic tricks. You just need to know how to use it. I'm afraid that in most cases one simply needs to "read the manual', and get to grips with it. In most cases you can tailer your sequencer to fit your needs. Logic is very good at this. You can customize all the key bindings, and add loads of plugs and stuff.

So, hope that was helpful.
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2007 12:41
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
hetoreyn wrote:
You can write in free time in logic .. you can in any sequencer .. but at the end of the day you need really to write to a certain beat and tempo if you want the music to eventually be scored for orchestra. And if you don't want that, then it's a good idea anyways because once you start adding loads of instruments it's going to get real messy Stick out tongue

No this is not strictly speaking correct. As I said earlier, I often put the barlines and beats in later, and it has never been a problem transferring to orchestra. However, I don't use Logic, which doesn't have this feature (AFAIK). Cool

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2007 14:45
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7289
hetoreyn wrote:
[...]
It is said the Logic 'sounds' better. But I'm not sure about this. Dietz had said this is because Logic uses 48 bit floating point next to Pro-tools 32 bit interger .. (or the other way round Big Smile) .. and so technically Logic should sound more musical. But I think it's down to opinion as to which is better.[...]

LOL - it's two times the other way 'round.

All modern "native" DAWs like Nuendo/Cubase, Logic, Sequoia/Samplitude, DP etc. use a 32bit floating- point engine, which gives you "unlimited" headroom internally, but produce so-called rounding errors (way below the limits of human perception, but mathematically, they can happen). ProTools has to rely on an 48bit integer engine due to the architecture of its signal processors. While offering some benefits from a purely mathematical point-of-view, the user may run into problems in real life more easily, like overloading busses etc.

I have made both wunderful and mediocre productions on all of these systems during the years; more often than not, when problems arose, the culprit was _not_ the audio engine itself, but bad engineering, bad arrangements, bad monitoring, bad musicians, or bad music Wink

That said, I think it is no secret on these pages that _PERSONALLY_ I'm a big fan of Steinberg's Nuendo. I also know people without a very technical background who pick out pieces produced with Nuendo amongst others in 9 from 10 cases with the words "This one sounds better". OTOH, it has been proven quite a few times that under "ceteris paribus"-conditions all those engines produce _identical_ (!) results, so the perceptible differences have to be a consequence of different ways of working, induced by different GUIs and feature implementations.

In short: If you have found _your_ tool, _your_ work will sound better - but the same tool will not necessarily fit other people's hands.

HTH,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2007 16:15
by Nick Batzdorf
Joined on Tue, Apr 29 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 2543
Dietz, do you happen to know what Pro Tools LE and M-Powered (the native versions) use for maths?

Also, Digidesign swears up and down in white papers and probably ones in different colors that it is impossible to clip the mix bus. Now, you can clip plug-ins, so the distinction seems fairly academic, but it's unlikely that they'd make a claim like that if it were totally bogus.

I'll see whether I can find a link...
Mac Pro 5,1 12-core 3.46 GHz, 64MB RAM, latest macOS available. Metric Halo 2882 interface.

VisionDAW Windows 7 Pro i7 950 3.07 4-core, 24GB RAM. Has an RME Hammerfall HDSP9632, but I just use VE Pro. Also several ancient P4 XP slaves, rarely used.
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2007 17:14
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7289
No, I never used LE-versions of ProTools, only TDM and HD, and yes, I may be totally wrong, as always! Cool
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2007 17:49
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1157
DG wrote:
hetoreyn wrote:
You can write in free time in logic .. you can in any sequencer .. but at the end of the day you need really to write to a certain beat and tempo if you want the music to eventually be scored for orchestra. And if you don't want that, then it's a good idea anyways because once you start adding loads of instruments it's going to get real messy Stick out tongue

No this is not strictly speaking correct. As I said earlier, I often put the barlines and beats in later, and it has never been a problem transferring to orchestra. However, I don't use Logic, which doesn't have this feature (AFAIK). Cool

DG


Hmm .. fair enough. Having never had to really score anything out I was going on just thinking ahead of how I would have to approach this .. but if you can do it without then that's cool too. And as you say .. Logic doesn't have this. Mind you I can't think of any app that I have that has this mode.
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2007 17:50
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1157
Dietz wrote:
hetoreyn wrote:
[...]
It is said the Logic 'sounds' better. But I'm not sure about this. Dietz had said this is because Logic uses 48 bit floating point next to Pro-tools 32 bit interger .. (or the other way round [Big Smile]) .. and so technically Logic should sound more musical. But I think it's down to opinion as to which is better.[...]

LOL - it's two times the other way 'round.

HTH,


Damn .. I so very nearly came off looking all knowledgable and intelligent there [Wink]

Well I tried that's the important thing. THings just get jumbled up in my head .. I suppose there's plenty of room Stick out tongue

Oh well .. this is the problem with responding to posts first [Big Smile]
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Wed, Jun 13 2007 18:11
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7289
hetoreyn wrote:
[...]
Damn .. I so very nearly came off looking all knowledgable and intelligent there [Wink] [...]

See - the same happened to me in the very same posting, thanks to Nick from The ProTools Guild Of The Right And True DAW ;-D
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2007 06:40
by Ducasse
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Posts 48
Thanks for the feedback. I just figured out a way to do this in Logic. It is not totally efficient, but it works ok. Bounce your "free time" track to audio and scissor it into 1 or 2 bar (any length) sections. If your timing is very rubato, I would do it every bar. Now select the first region. Now enable the cycle region for the "length" of your scissored region (1 bar, 2 bar etc..). Now go to Options/Tempo/Adjust tempo using region length and locators. It gives you the option to create a tempo change, or globally change the tempo. You can do this for many regions, and build a grid that conforms to your natural tempo changes! The audio doesn't move only the grid. Once you have built the map, merge the audio track back together. If you did this with one inst-the map would be built. You can have a click- or just add new voices with more flexibility to quantize to the down beat etc.. Yay! Sort of... Big Smile
Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2007 11:49
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1157
Still not really sure why you want to write in free time. For me .. I just play the melodies that I want on my keyboard till I'm happy with the timing .. then I spend 5 mins in logic just getting the right tempo .. and then record the melody .. then adjust the time signature .. if it's needed.

However you no doubt have a good reason for wanting to do it the way you're doing it or you wouldn't be trying to do it that way at all Big Smile

I would just suggest that maybe you're over complicating what can be a fairly easy endeavour.
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2007 12:21
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
hetoreyn wrote:
Still not really sure why you want to write in free time. For me .. I just play the melodies that I want on my keyboard till I'm happy with the timing .. then I spend 5 mins in logic just getting the right tempo .. and then record the melody .. then adjust the time signature .. if it's needed.

However you no doubt have a good reason for wanting to do it the way you're doing it or you wouldn't be trying to do it that way at all Big Smile

I would just suggest that maybe you're over complicating what can be a fairly easy endeavour.

The thing is, it's not about "right tempo", it's about the ebb and flow of music. If you want to put in a musical ritardando, then the easiest way is to play it naturally. If you set the click first, it will always sound stilted, and chances are that if you are transferring to live players, they won't be able to perform successfully to the click. In my experience, even the most complicated click tracks can work, as long as they feel natural, and are musical.

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Jun 14 2007 23:39
by Angelo Clematide
Joined on Thu, Sep 08 2005, Posts 1139
With Logic, most often with the following available technique:

a) Record to the KlopfGeist at a fixed tempo; the recorded music fits the lenght of the cue.

b) Record (quasi conduct) the tempi changes into the tempolist, then record the music to that tempolist while the KlopfGeist is on.

c) Record without KlopfGeist.

d) Record without KlopfGeist, but after the recording is done, add a tempolist who fits the wave of hands of the the conductor.

e) Cut with the sizzler already existing recording to segments, there where tempo changes start/are, and then "Adjust Tempo by Selection & Locator" each segment, then record more music to the variable tempi.

f) Measure the lenght of a video segment; make the tempolist to fit the lenght, and record.

Of course, tempi and tempolists are made to fit the lenght of the film cues.

.
Posted on Fri, Jun 15 2007 01:44
by Nick Batzdorf
Joined on Tue, Apr 29 2003, Los Angeles, Posts 2543
Quote:
See - the same happened to me in the very same posting, thanks to Nick from The ProTools Guild Of The Right And True DAW ;-D




Sure I like Pro Tools, but I didn't intend it to sound like my religion! In fact I didn't upgrade to HD and sold my MIXplus system a while ago, so now I just have an MBox (but I use Logic most of the time for writing).

And as I said, if you can clip plug-ins, what's the difference? Smile

This is the link. It's about 900k:

http://akmedia.digidesign.com/support/docs/48_Bit_Mixer_26688.pdf
Mac Pro 5,1 12-core 3.46 GHz, 64MB RAM, latest macOS available. Metric Halo 2882 interface.

VisionDAW Windows 7 Pro i7 950 3.07 4-core, 24GB RAM. Has an RME Hammerfall HDSP9632, but I just use VE Pro. Also several ancient P4 XP slaves, rarely used.
Posted on Fri, Jun 15 2007 08:03
by Ducasse
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Posts 48
Angelo, Thanks for the run down of all the ways to achieve this- I will have to try some of them..
Hetoreyn, it all started when I Got a job because of a piano performance I had recorded. They wanted to use that recording in the film- it was inspired, and totally in free time. Later when they wanted to add live strings there was no click-Everyone thought it was my fault-I suppose it was- but it was impossible to play to if you hadn't heard it 10,000 times. I ended up meticulously editing some poorly performed string lines to get a performance. Since then I have realized that for me "free time" is very beautiful and natural in music. I have been striving to use the grid around my time, and not fake it with artificial tempo changes etc. I still am not sure I am totally confident I can truly pull this off. I really want to give Nuendo a demo run and see how it feels. Sorry if this doesn't make sense, or seems trivial. It just doesn't feel right to me if i write on a grid.
Posted on Fri, Jun 15 2007 15:35
by Mahlon
Joined on Sun, Jan 08 2006, The decadent South, Posts 441
I'm interested in this as well. In Nuendo (and I assume Cubase, too) how do you actually go about changing the tempo to match your playing -- once you've played in the midi sequence? Do you just move barline and beatlines graphically? I've been trying to find a way to do this in Sonar and can't seem to find an easy, or graphical way.

This is one of the features I would like most, because I spend huge amounts of time adjusting the tempo manually -- and the tempo window and note event window are two separate things and not even connected. One of Sonar's deficiencies I'm afraid.

Thanks,
Mahlon
Posted on Fri, Jun 15 2007 20:18
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Mahlon wrote:
I'm interested in this as well. In Nuendo (and I assume Cubase, too) how do you actually go about changing the tempo to match your playing -- once you've played in the midi sequence? Do you just move barline and beatlines graphically? I've been trying to find a way to do this in Sonar and can't seem to find an easy, or graphical way.

This is one of the features I would like most, because I spend huge amounts of time adjusting the tempo manually -- and the tempo window and note event window are two separate things and not even connected. One of Sonar's deficiencies I'm afraid.

Thanks,
Mahlon

Basically you are correct. There are a few technical settings to follow, but you play, set the beat quantize and then drag the barlines/beats around until they fit your playing. It can just about be done in real time, or even faster, if you are only mapping bars. Cubase also has this feature.

DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Jun 16 2007 21:23
by Patrick Wilson
Joined on Mon, Feb 16 2004, UK, Posts 109
Here's what I do to convert free-time playing to actual bars/beats in Logic.

Play the piece in as you like-maybe on piano.

Make sure it's all in one contiguous part (glue together separate parts if necessary)

Open Matrix Edit, select all notes and drag first to bar position you like (1.1.1 maybe)

Keep part selected, go to 'Region' drop down menu >Lock [part] to SMPTE position

Now you can open the Tempo editor, insert tempo changes to line up the notes to the beats and bars. To do this I keep the Matrix Editor open to see the effect of my Tempo changes on the note positions).
Posted on Sun, Jun 17 2007 21:19
by Angelo Clematide
Joined on Thu, Sep 08 2005, Posts 1139
Oh, what Patrick Wilson says, could also be done like that

Assign a pedal to the command "tap tempo," and the sequencer will follow what you tap with your feet, while you can input the music with a controller, for example a keyboard

The keyboard I suggest for VSL live input:
http://www.keyboardmag.com/story.asp?storycode=4526:
http://www.hakenaudio.com/Continuum/

.
Posted on Mon, Jun 18 2007 09:05
by Ducasse
Joined on Wed, Jun 06 2007, Posts 48
Thanks all. All of these are great ideas. I am feeling much more comfortable having tried some of these ideas. I can't try them all because Logic express is missing almost all useful tools, but it lets me try some of them. Still not sure about Logic vs Nuendo, but I guess I'll wait and see if a new Logic rolls out with the new OS X..I have a feeling the next version is going to be very good. Angelo-that is one wicked looking controller- I am very afraid of it!!!
2 Pages12>
You cannot post new threads in this forum.
You cannot reply to threads in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.