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Keyswitching bug! Has it been mentioned?
Last post Fri, Sep 14 2012 by William, 25 replies.
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Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2007 02:10
by Elan Hickler
Joined on Wed, Jun 27 2007, Gilbert, AZ, Posts 99

Well, from my observations (even after installing the latest VI version) all the keyswitching is an octave higher than it should be. When I set a keyswitch to C1, it only works at C0.

By the way, I just became an official VSL user. I'm excited to show this community what I plan on doing with these lovely little chamber strings. *slowly takes out a knife*

I own Chamber Standard. My next purchase will be Percussion Standard 

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2007 03:44
by jbm
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 1150
Double-check what your sequencer considers to be middle-C. It will be either C3 (Yamaha) or C4 (Roland). C4 is cool, just so you know. ;-)
Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2007 04:15
by Elan Hickler
Joined on Wed, Jun 27 2007, Gilbert, AZ, Posts 99

I don't own a keyboard of any kind. When you say Sequencer, I own Cubase. Or is that considered a host and keyboard is considered a sequencer? I thought Keyboard = Remote and Cubase = Sequencer.

Anyway, I hope you understand this is a BUG just like I said. The bug is in the standalone version on VI and in the plugin. For example, when I try to assign a key using the VI (not the sequencer, not a keyboard) I hit the lowest key on the VI virtual keyboard and it becomes C1, not C0 like it should.

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2007 05:08
by jbm
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 1150
I "understand" that you're not getting the octave you think you're getting...
Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2007 07:22
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

No it's not a bug. Cubase thinks that Middle C is C3. In fact the International standard is C4. There are historical reasons why there are different views on this, but VSL is following the International standard. If you use a notation program like sibelius you will find the same thing. Middle C is C4. I'm afraid that until Steinberg implements a preference for changing their view of Middle C then you will just have to remember that your sequencer (Cubase) is an octave out.

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Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2007 15:23
by Elan Hickler
Joined on Wed, Jun 27 2007, Gilbert, AZ, Posts 99

Ah. Does that affect anything else such as the octave of notes on a given instrument? 

Posted on Sat, Sep 22 2007 17:10
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

It affects everything. You will find that all the notes are an octave out from what Cubase tells you. I hope that Steinberg fixes this so that we can choose, as using a transposition causes problems with other things.


DG

document.write( '<'+'a'+' '+'h'+'r'+'e'+'f'+'='+'"'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'9'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'8'+';'+ '&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'6'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'8'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'8'+';'+ '&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'2'+';'+'&'+'#'+'4'+'8'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'3'+';'+'&'+'#'+ '3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'2'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+ ';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'7'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+ '#'+'5'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+ '4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'7'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'0'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'5'+';'+ '&'+'#'+'5'+'3'+';'+'&'+'#'+'3'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'5'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'6'+';'+'"'+'>'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'6'+'4'+ ';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'5'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'6'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'4'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'1'+';'+'&'+ '#'+'4'+'6'+';'+'&'+'#'+'9'+'9'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'1'+';'+'&'+'#'+'4'+'6'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'1'+'7'+';'+'&'+'#'+'1'+'0'+'7'+';'+ '<'+'/'+'a'+'>'); ">
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Sep 04 2012 19:36
by Bear1978
Joined on Sun, Dec 04 2011, Posts 1
Hey everyone. New to the forum... I have a slightly different issue that seems like a keyswitching bug: When I use lower register instruments like Tuba or DB, the keyswitches don't work. Using Cubase, the keyswitches default to C0 for all instruments which work fine for most, but these two instruments won't respond to them even if the switches are assigned to a lower set of keys. Has anyone else run into this?

Thank you!

Cubase Artist 6
Mac OS 10.7
Vienna Instruments
Special Edition
Posted on Tue, Sep 04 2012 22:00
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1720

Welcome here in the family of VSL Bear1978!

The time for bugs within the VI is far behind us - at any rate for common applications and uses. 

So doupt first yourself in connection with the VI ;-)

OK, your problem:

Make sure that your keyswitches are not within the playing range of the instruments.

If "C0" (C-1 within Cubase) is the lowest keyswitch you will also have those of C1, C#1D1 and probably C2 etc.

This is too high for Contra- and Bass Instruments.

Either you go down one more octave (C~) (C-2 in Cubase) or above the playing range.

If you are using the new Vienna Instrument you can see the keyswitches on the built in keyboard.

As I mentioned: The keyswitches should be outside the playing range of a certain instrument

Best

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, Sep 04 2012 22:01
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1720

Text deleted

Sorry - the upper topic appeared twice...

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Thu, Sep 06 2012 06:52
by Suntower
Joined on Wed, Mar 16 2011, Seattle, Dublin, Posts 276

Well, here in 2012 this still drives me nuts.

I had NO idea C4 was 'middle C' until I started using Cubase and VSL. One reason I like the new VI update is that it visually shows you which keys do what.

I wish there was a way to be like with A440 v A442 and say 'This is -my- middle C'.

---JC

DAW: Cubase 8.5/64
Controllers: CME UF8, Roland VDrums, Exp. Pedal, Sus Pedal.
Main: Sandybridge Win10/64 16gb Boot Dr: SSD, Samples: SAT-600
Slave: Intel Q8400, 16gb RAM Win10/64
VEP5, VIPro, Chamber Strings, Tenor Sax, Epic Orch, EWQLO
Posted on Thu, Sep 06 2012 08:27
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Suntower wrote:

I had NO idea C4 was 'middle C' until I started using Cubase and VSL. One reason I like the new VI update is that it visually shows you which keys do what.

I wish there was a way to be like with A440 v A442 and say 'This is -my- middle C'.

---JC

 

 In some sequencers it is possible to make this choice. What sequencer are you using?

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Sep 06 2012 17:09
by Suntower
Joined on Wed, Mar 16 2011, Seattle, Dublin, Posts 276

Cubase. Is there an option like this for Cubase?

DAW: Cubase 8.5/64
Controllers: CME UF8, Roland VDrums, Exp. Pedal, Sus Pedal.
Main: Sandybridge Win10/64 16gb Boot Dr: SSD, Samples: SAT-600
Slave: Intel Q8400, 16gb RAM Win10/64
VEP5, VIPro, Chamber Strings, Tenor Sax, Epic Orch, EWQLO
Posted on Thu, Sep 06 2012 17:25
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Suntower wrote:

Cubase. Is there an option like this for Cubase?

Nope, even though users have been asking for this for years.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Sep 06 2012 19:35
by bhartmann
Joined on Thu, Mar 10 2011, Posts 170
By trial and error I learned that a C2 in Sonar triggers what is called a C1 in the Control panel of VSL. This has never been a problem once I learned how it is mapped. (And this confusion affects lots of software and keyboards. I had the same challenge with MusicLab products like RealGuitar and RealStrat. Funny, since almost everything else in MIDI is so well standardized.)

By the way, one great feature of VSL is that every factory matrix uses the same keyswitch for the same articulation whenever possible and logical. This means if I decide to change from solo violin to chamber to orchestral, or move a second violin part to viola, I don't have to redo all the keyswitches. I don't need sticky notes all over my monitor to keep track of how to trigger legato v sustain v detache, etc. Contrast this to Hollywood Strings which has a very confusing hodge-podge of controls. (I am not being mean and Hollywood can sound good. I just think the VSL system is much more efficient for people and computers.)

The Mighty Konrad
Posted on Thu, Sep 06 2012 23:55
by Suntower
Joined on Wed, Mar 16 2011, Seattle, Dublin, Posts 276

At the risk of sounding even whinier than usual, this is why I want some sort of VST Expression.

What -I- is some gizmo that sits next to my keyboard with some combination of levers/switches that I can set up for 'Stac', 'Sfz', etc... REGARDLESS of what VSTi I'm triggering. And -somehow-, using MIDI, usb, steam power or 'space magic!', the gizmo sends the proper 'command' to whatever MIDI track I have in focus in my DAW.

I don't want to have to remember that C#1 is stac for violins... and C#6 for CB... when using VSL and then F#1 for EW flutes. I just want a UNIVERSAL STACCATO BUTTON. I take a day (and a fifth of gin) and program the device like a garage door opener, write labels on each button and then I'm -done-.

In short, I think keyswitches should be disconnected from MIDI notes altogether so they can be 'transmitted' in some way that is universal and, above all, requires no memorisation of any kind. I thought Steinberg was -really- onto something with VST Expression and I'm sad that nobody else seems to have gotten on the bandwagon.

And while I'm ranting... I'm partially disabled. I have crap eyesight and mousing is tough as well. It always annoys me that most software, that is designed for 'creatives' is so poorly set up for disabled people. I can't imagine even a genius like Stevie Wonder using -any- of this software.... or even a web browser... without an assistant. I'm constantly griping because things like taking my eyes off the screen or switching from the mouse back to the keyboard back to the mouse a billion times a day SUCKS. I would MUCH rather go back to MS-DOS or Unix where there was a key command for -everything-. See... a blind guy or even a lot of people with hand problems can do perfectly fine touch typing. It's the MOUSE... which seems so 'creative friendly' which blows.

My point is that, music software, which should be one thing that disabled people can use to do really cool things, is -much- harder to use than say, BORING PRACTICAL programs like Word and Excel. Which seems kinda backwards to me.

In America there are standards for GUIs (Section 508) which software devs are -supposed- to work towards... every key has an accelerator, every screen object can be used with a screen reader, etc... Ya know which company is 1,000 miles ahead in compliance on this leftie-progressive ideal? Apple? Nope. Google. Hell no. Microsoft. Boring, outdated Microsoft.

I'm not sure disabled stuff is even on the radar for euro-software devs of -any- kind, which puzzles me considering how much more 'progressive' the EU is on so many issues. But I've groused at Steinberg (and now VSL) for -years- to make their products easier to use... at the very least to comply with the Windows UI guidelines (accelerators, default buttons for every window etc.) And that -really- puzzles me because, even before I was hurt, I worked MUCH faster when the UI had these kinds of refinements... I think everyone else would find it easier too.

OK, I'm done. I promise not to rant on this for a -long- time. But this seemingly 'minor' stuff is -maddening- for some of us.

---JC

DAW: Cubase 8.5/64
Controllers: CME UF8, Roland VDrums, Exp. Pedal, Sus Pedal.
Main: Sandybridge Win10/64 16gb Boot Dr: SSD, Samples: SAT-600
Slave: Intel Q8400, 16gb RAM Win10/64
VEP5, VIPro, Chamber Strings, Tenor Sax, Epic Orch, EWQLO
Posted on Fri, Sep 07 2012 08:24
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I think you're ranting at the wrong company. All of what you want is possible with VSL. It's just that the rest of the developers are still living in the dark ages. There are ways to do what you want, even without VST Expression, but it will take detailed preparation and every time you get a new, inflexible library, you will have to go through the process again.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Sep 08 2012 02:26
by Suntower
Joined on Wed, Mar 16 2011, Seattle, Dublin, Posts 276

That is the 'if everyone else would just do it my way, everything would be fine' argument all would be monopolists like to use. I agree that VSL has some pretty superior products, but standards -matter-. VSL has more and more taken the 'walled garden' approach. I understand their reasons but nevertheless...

Since VEP is a stand-alone app, Vienna can do a lot more than other VSTi developers to address the usability issues I raised. They are not as hamstrung by VST. And like other devs, they also have the option to conform to the standards that Steinberg has put forward (like VST Expression).

I'm not blaming anyone more or less than anyone else---and I'm certainly no Steinberg fanboy. But the whole DAW market has become so balkanized it drives me nuts. For what -I- do, even if I had all the $ in the world, I couldn't 'live' in a VSL world---they just don't have the product range.

And I'll go one step further... I think that at least -one- reason music in general is getting so crappy is because you've got these super-sophisticated apps like VSL that are more and more living in their own little gated communities walled off from the general DAW hoipolloi.

I roll my eyes at all these 'sound construction' libraries, with pre-recorded runs and stings or preset orchestral groupings, but when I think about how much sheer -work- it is to do an equivalent MIDI mock-up... because of all the importing and exporting and hand-editing between a proper notation program and a MIDI sequencer and then mixing and on and on... I start to understand why guys opt for the 'just add water' approach.

MIDI mock-ups are just too frickin' hard to do given the current state of tech. End of story. And I've concluded that the lack of proper integration between the various components (DAW, sample libs, notators) is the big stumbling block. VSL can improve on VEP and MIR as much as they like, but until all the vendors do a -much- better job of working -together- on some sort of common integration, it's gonna remain much tougher than it should be. I -know- I'm in the minority, but I think the tools to write -text- are, after all these years, still about 1,000 miles ahead of the tools to write music.And everyone keeps focusing on polishing sound quality and making excuses instead of tackling that basic -speed- issue. By -speed- I mean the time it takes to convert my thought into a finished recording. -Way- too slow. It should take no longer to do a decent midi mock-up than it would to write out a score in pencil. Not parts. Just the score. That's the only way to counter all these stupid pre-fab libraries and other sonic wallpapers that pass for 'music' these days.

DAW: Cubase 8.5/64
Controllers: CME UF8, Roland VDrums, Exp. Pedal, Sus Pedal.
Main: Sandybridge Win10/64 16gb Boot Dr: SSD, Samples: SAT-600
Slave: Intel Q8400, 16gb RAM Win10/64
VEP5, VIPro, Chamber Strings, Tenor Sax, Epic Orch, EWQLO
Posted on Sat, Sep 08 2012 10:01
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Suntower wrote:

That is the 'if everyone else would just do it my way, everything would be fine' argument all would be monopolists like to use. I agree that VSL has some pretty superior products, but standards -matter-. VSL has more and more taken the 'walled garden' approach. I understand their reasons but nevertheless...

Since VEP is a stand-alone app, Vienna can do a lot more than other VSTi developers to address the usability issues I raised. They are not as hamstrung by VST. And like other devs, they also have the option to conform to the standards that Steinberg has put forward (like VST Expression).

I'm not blaming anyone more or less than anyone else---and I'm certainly no Steinberg fanboy. But the whole DAW market has become so balkanized it drives me nuts. For what -I- do, even if I had all the $ in the world, I couldn't 'live' in a VSL world---they just don't have the product range. 

 

I still think you have it the wrong way round. Vienna Instruments software is really flexible, so that you can set it up to work like any other sample library, as far as controls and keyswitches are concerned.  Just not all of the other sample libraries do it the same way. Therefore it is the other developers that need to give you this flexibility. There is nothing that VSL can do to change products from other developers.

Suntower wrote:

And I'll go one step further... I think that at least -one- reason music in general is getting so crappy is because you've got these super-sophisticated apps like VSL that are more and more living in their own little gated communities walled off from the general DAW hoipolloi.

 

No, the reason music is getting so crappy is that too many so-called composers are musically illiterate. I don't think that VSL is in the least responsible, because you actually have to play every note (apart from the octave runs).

Suntower wrote:

I roll my eyes at all these 'sound construction' libraries, with pre-recorded runs and stings or preset orchestral groupings, but when I think about how much sheer -work- it is to do an equivalent MIDI mock-up... because of all the importing and exporting and hand-editing between a proper notation program and a MIDI sequencer and then mixing and on and on... I start to understand why guys opt for the 'just add water' approach.

 

I do partially agree with you here, except to say that for some things construction kits of pre-recorded phrases can sound better than hand crafting every note separately. However, the construction kit has to be very extensive and very cleverly put together, in order to cover the majority of cases. The user would also have to have a lot of input in the stitching together in the MIDI sequence. There is no product available at that level, which is why all these things sound the same.

Suntower wrote:

MIDI mock-ups are just too frickin' hard to do given the current state of tech. End of story. And I've concluded that the lack of proper integration between the various components (DAW, sample libs, notators) is the big stumbling block. VSL can improve on VEP and MIR as much as they like, but until all the vendors do a -much- better job of working -together- on some sort of common integration, it's gonna remain much tougher than it should be. I -know- I'm in the minority, but I think the tools to write -text- are, after all these years, still about 1,000 miles ahead of the tools to write music.And everyone keeps focusing on polishing sound quality and making excuses instead of tackling that basic -speed- issue. By -speed- I mean the time it takes to convert my thought into a finished recording. -Way- too slow. It should take no longer to do a decent midi mock-up than it would to write out a score in pencil. Not parts. Just the score. That's the only way to counter all these stupid pre-fab libraries and other sonic wallpapers that pass for 'music' these days.

 

 I certainly agree that i would like to be able to type a score and then it play back the way i want it. as long as I could over-ride the settings when I disagree with the default. However, I can't imagine how much time just working out the playback algorithms would take, and then you have to consider that even when sequencing by hand, some very simple things don't sound good.

I don't think that writing text is remotely comparable though. What you're really asking for is that the text can sound as if it's spoken by the best actors in the world. I have yet to hear any text speaking program that doesn't make Stephen Hawking sound like a first rate Opera singer. Wink

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sun, Sep 09 2012 20:44
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

OK, here's someting else that you can try.

http://www.bewaryprods.com/software/products/TransMIDIfier/

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
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