Suspicious sounding user demos

[MichaelD]

I thought for a while about whether or not it would be appropriate to point this out on the VSL website.

I would be interested in your opinions regarding the following User Demos.

Michael Vickerage's "The Descent", listed in the Suspense section of User Demos. Does this piece not have a striking resemblence to the "Introduction to the Sacrifice" in Stravinsky's Rite of Spring??

Also, there is another USER DEMO in the Dramatic section that sounds suspiciously familiar, with the drum cadence, the Uillean pipes, Irish wistle That much could have been a coincidence, until you hear the trombones playing those major 1,3,5's a tritone apart. Yes, it sounds like James Horner. I'm really only talking about the first 15-20 seconds of the piece here.

Oh well, John Williams "borrowed" from Stravinsky in that same section as well as a few others for Star Wars, so I guess I should just let it go.

What do YOU think?

[PaulR]

@MichaelD said:

What do YOU think?

Well......considering that was your first post.......I think you may be a prize prick. But hey, that's just my view.

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

I've seen this over and over again in various posts and blah blah blah.

When something resembles something else they immediately call it "note for note"

That to me is BS. So what if we were influenced by other composers. You can't tell me you've never written something including a resemblence of a favorite composers piece. Every composer has an influence, and sometimes it can sound much alike. Most composer will add a resemblance like this to a piece only for a moment. Possibly as a tribute.

The second piece you are talking about doesn't resemble horner much in any way except for a few parts if it's the one I'm thinking about.

[Peter Brown]

I feel like I have to chime in here…

1. Horner did not invent the tritone. Pythagoras did by mathematically describing a Perfect Interval. Everything else in the western world comes from that. Shame he didn't have an agent.
2. Pythagoras aside, it is a technical impossibility to 'steal' or 'borrow' from Horner, if you catch my drift. Listen to 'Escape from the Tavern' in Willow, an then 'Stealing the Enterprise' from Trek 3, and then listen to Act 2 of Prokofiev's 'Romeo and Juliet' and tell me about 'note-for-note' and originality.

Welcome, by the way. Most people are here for constructive views. Please post some of your work with VSL. You won't avoid the scrutiny now.

[[;)]]

Peter

[Fiery Angel]

What an auspicious first post.

Horner has been ripping off people (an himself) for years and he's getting PAID to write original music for each film. These gents are writing music to demo VSL.

[William]

Michael ID

O.K. I am editing this to try and state it more calmly and clearly:

James Horner?

He is the ultimate ripoff artist in Hollywood who has stolen from every composer that ever walked the face of the earth.

And you are defending him from being ripped off? That is absurd.

[William]

never mind...

[Fiery Angel]

If I'm right, I actually know MichaelD. And I have heard his music too which IS very original. He doesn't use sample libs like us though. Writes everything out for real musicians. If this is the person I'm thinking of, he didn't mean to insult anyone here. Just point out some stylistic references. He's a good chap lads. [H]

[Guy Bacos]

I'll be brief:

"Good composers inspire themselves from other composers, great composers copy."

-Stravinsky

[William]

That is awesome Guy! I love it.

Shakespeare - the least original but the greatest playwright in world history, did the same. Hamlet is a total ripoff of some poor fuck's play who was too stupid to keep it away from a crowd-pleaser like Shakespeare...

not to encourage either crowd-pleasing or ripping off, but... [[;)]]

[Ron 14]

Well, MichaelD. I think you ment no harm.
But it seems you got the quilty angry................... [8o|] [[;)]]
Quite a warm welcome............................... [8-)]

[William]

"Well, MichaelD. I think you ment no harm.
But it seems you got the quilty angry" - Ron H



No, we don't make quilts here, this is about music.

[Ron 14]

I don't think so.Reading your smart talk......................

[William]

Smart talk?

That's not smart talk. that's nice talk, considering this personage out of nowhere suddenly appears with a sweeping critique of the people here.

[Ron 14]

Maybe you should read his first two sentences again...............................

[William]

Just for your information, the person who wrote this thread -

James Horner is the one of the least original film composers ever -

He has stolen directly from - not mere similarities or inspirations, but direct copying of everything including orchestration (on films I happened to notice - i am sure there are more) :

Schumann's 3rd Symphony First Movement: Willow Main Theme.
Ives "Unanswered Question": "Humanoids from the Deep."
Shostakovich 5th Symphony 3rd Movement: "The Sorceresses"
Prokofiev's "Alexander Nevsky" : "Star Trek II" AND "Troy"

So before you accuse people of stealing from your idols, you might want to know who your idols steal from...

[clarkcontrol]

I think its appropriate that we hear classical or film music references (and even full classical reproductions) in the VSL demos.

It's an easy way to decide if certain techniques, styles, etc. sound good or great using these tools.

Clark

[fcw]

@William said:

Just for your information, the person who wrote this thread -

James Horner is the one of the least original film composers ever -

He has stolen directly from - not mere similarities or inspirations, but direct copying of everything including orchestration (on films I happened to notice - i am sure there are more):

There certainly are; the podcast Opportunity Makes a Thief from Film Score Monthly provides many examples of concert music that's ended up wholesale in Horner's scores.

The Russian composers seem to be a particularly rich source for him; indeed, one might argue that, thanks to Horner, Prokofiev and Shostakovich continue to be among our leading contemporary film composers.

[William]

That is hilarious! I am glad other people have noticed this. I remember being shocked time after time while suddenly hearing ripoffs in James Horner scores, not just "influences" - such as found in John Williams, who though influenced by other composers sometimes writes something quite similar - has an original basic style of his own which is as distinctive as any composer he is similar to. Also, his themes are his own. Yes, a secondary theme like "lois Lane" is like Strauss "Death and Transfiguration" or whatever, but the main themes are quite original. Since Williams is an excellent conductor also, this also causes influences to seep into his work.

It is difficult to create a hard and fast distinction as a definition, but he is not doing what Horner does, which is the wholesale lifting of an entire passage, with small changes, as a main theme. With the Schumann Third Symphony, Horner simply took the main theme and put in little fanfares, and presto! You've got yourself a theme for your soundtrack.

I don't care when somebody can't help doing something similar because they love the music that inspired them - like John Williams - but when somebody does this so callously, and calculatingly - that is disgusting.

[strawinsky]

Hello MichaelD, and thank you for the (probably unintentional) compliment. Did you miss the second half of the Descent influence? That was Holst. So, I guess, I'm saying: your point is....what? Hardly suspicious,really, since I have made no attempt to disguise the influence. If you look at Igor's score and my pale imitation, they aren't particularly similar, actually: there's more than a bit of Berg in there too.

In the world of professional composing for the media (and even elsewhere), it happens all the time, as far back as Korngold, so waddya gonna do? Like Guy Bacos said, quoting, Stravinsky, composers are frequently,ere, misappropriating musical funds.

Oh, and take a listen to my Dark City [;)] a "Marvellous" piece.

Oh, and Ron H: you're not THE Ron H, are you? 'Cos that would make a lot of sense. Hehehehe!