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My first time with samples, Ravel - Sleeping Beauty
Last post Tue, May 15 2007 by Ron 14, 11 replies.
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Posted on Sun, May 06 2007 20:28
by Brian
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 185
Hi All,

So this is my very first time working with samples and this is my very first mock-up. Ravel seems to be the composer of choice here so I decided to pick something that was orchestrationally simple in scale for my first time out of the park.

I thought I'd put my work on the chopping block and see if anyone has any comments or advice. I've been reading a lot on here about how people work with samples, and I' ve been, through much trial and error, trying to nail down my own working method.

This took me about 15 hours, after working through all the core audio overload messages and settings, but I finally got everything working correctly....I think. Anyway, balance is really hard for me, as I don't have a good set of monitors, and I don't have a good stereo imager. Altiverb's speaker placement options caused much frustration initially and I'm still not quite satisfied with the placement of the instruments. The strings still sound a little off to me, but oh well.

So, here we go, I've got some images of my session and altiverb settings as well as the mp3 (1:41)

http://www.aeneaseditions.com/ravel/"="" target="_blank" title="http://www.aeneaseditions.com/Ravel/">http://www.aeneaseditions.com/Ravel/">http://www.aeneaseditions.com/Ravel/

Thanks, Brian
Posted on Sun, May 06 2007 21:58
by Justus
Joined on Thu, Jun 23 2005, Hamburg, Germany, Posts 41
Very good job for the first time.
But there's way too much reverb on top (you might have recognized it after hearing the piece the next day; sometimes you need fresh ears Wink)
Good use of instruments nevertheless.
Which edition did you use?

Regards,
Justus
OPUS 1
Tags: Showcase
Posted on Mon, May 07 2007 05:02
by Brian
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 185
Justus wrote:
Very good job for the first time.
But there's way too much reverb on top (you might have recognized it after hearing the piece the next day; sometimes you need fresh ears Wink)
Good use of instruments nevertheless.
Which edition did you use?

Regards,
Justus


Hi Justus, thanks for the help and kind words! So I've reduced the reverb, and put up a modified MP3. However, now the strings sound really weird. Perhaps this is the phasing problem Jay Bacal was talking about in Altiverb?

I'm using VSL Special Edition (Standard).

Thanks again, Brian
Posted on Mon, May 07 2007 22:27
by magates
Joined on Thu, Aug 14 2003, Los Angeles CA, Posts 484
The best way to use altiverb is 100% wet (that's the way it is meant to be setup) but do move the whole thing forward with altiverb - it is too distant not too wet. Either use a closer IR or use the positing to move it closer. - the distance does cover up mistakes and problems but also covers up clarity. I would also use more volume curves throughout. Midi volume and mod wheel volume are really important.
Posted on Mon, May 07 2007 22:52
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1157
Altiverbs Speaker placement works best if you keep them at the default positions, and try not to spread them too wide. I also think this piece was nicely written, and the second attempt is a good improvement.

Not sure what you're using for different depth layers .. or if indeed you are using different depth layers, but that would be the way to improve overall believability ... hehe I've spent the last 5 months trying to do just this.

If you like .. and if you work in Logic .. I can pass along some Presets for AV, and perhaps a Logic template that you can try, see if that works for you.

I'm working on posting this as a topic on my site. but it's not quite ready yet.

Good effort .. keep it up. Big Smile
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Thu, May 10 2007 05:13
by Brian
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 185
Hi All,

Sorry, I've been mute for so long, was in the middle of finals...just finished, and now ready to get back to VSL again!

hetoreyn,

Thanks for the advice! I'm experimenting with different altiverb settings now, without moving the speakers' default positions. Currently I'm thinking that panning the instrument tracks and then busing them into different altiverb depths (instead of independent speaker positioning on each instrument) sounds pretty good, depending on the right IR. Strings on close bus, winds middle bus, brass & percussion, far bus. It seems like the fewer the altiverb instances the better. Oh yes, I do use Logic and I'd enjoy seeing some preset options! That would be immensely helpful for moving beyond my VSL/AV infancy stage.

magates,

Thanks to you to for your help. The dynamic expression in your music is extremely impressive! In the future I'll try to keep in mind wider expression curves.

I would like to do a retake of Ravel with both your advices worked in, but I think I'm a little Raveled-out for now, so I've moved on to something else. I'll post it too when it's ready.

Thanks again, Brian
Posted on Thu, May 10 2007 10:13
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1157
Brian wrote:
Hi All,
I'm experimenting with different altiverb settings now, without moving the speakers' default positions. Currently I'm thinking that panning the instrument tracks and then busing them into different altiverb depths (instead of independent speaker positioning on each instrument) sounds pretty good, depending on the right IR. Strings on close bus, winds middle bus, brass & percussion, far bus. It seems like the fewer the altiverb instances the better. Oh yes, I do use Logic and I'd enjoy seeing some preset options! Brian


Of course you don't have to keep them rigidly in the default positions Big Smile, you can afford to move them slightly further apart, but it's best not to over do it .. I've discovered that it's like expanding stereo width from 1 (normal stereo) to 2 (way to wide stereo). And like wise you can use a stereo widener at 1.2 or 1.3 just fine ... so similar with AV.

And of course for different depth layers moving them back or forward is still fine.

Anyways, I'll send along some presets just as soon as I can (I'll PM them to you), so you can try something different.
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Fri, May 11 2007 21:34
by Brian
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 185
Alright, so I decided to give the Ravel another go anyway (even though I said I wouldn't), this time I choose a closer IR (Mechanics Hall). Using 8M for strings on Bus 1 & 11M for winds on Bus 2. Then, instead of adjusting the wet/dry mix knob (I kept it at 100%), I just slightly reduced the BIG Reverb knob to 85% (still wanted less reverb).

I think this is the best version yet, but I'll let you experts decide.

Thanks, Brian
Posted on Sat, May 12 2007 18:00
by Ron 14
Joined on Wed, Jul 07 2004, Posts 41
I think halfway some sustain-notes in the solo are too loud.
But well done!
Posted on Mon, May 14 2007 22:37
by Brian
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 185
Ron H. wrote:
I think halfway some sustain-notes in the solo are too loud.
But well done!


Hi Ron,

Thanks! Yea, you're right the clarinet gets too loud. That's because I used track volume above 0dB to make it more present in the mix, but I know that's not the way to do that now. Here's my second attempt at sample work:

http://www.aeneaseditions.com/elgar/"="" target="_blank" title="http://www.aeneaseditions.com/Elgar/">http://www.aeneaseditions.com/Elgar/">http://www.aeneaseditions.com/Elgar/

Appreciate it! Brian
Posted on Tue, May 15 2007 08:09
by Ron 14
Joined on Wed, Jul 07 2004, Posts 41
Very nice.Maybe it can use a little more overall clarity,increasing high frequencies a little, but that's just a mixing-issue.
Gr. Ron.
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