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Larger EXS Access on pre-Leopard Logic 8
Last post Mon, Oct 08 2007 by plowman, 13 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Sep 17 2007 22:05
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1174
For those not following the discussion elsewhere, some are claiming to have access to more than 4 GB (3.7 practically, as we know, and sometimes crashing at 2.7) on computers without Leopard. Others (like Stupid8Track) say that they have tried and it isn't working for now. I remember the great detail that S8T posted a couple of years ago, trying to get two Logics to run on one computer -- largely in an effort to solve this very RAM limit. He was thorough and diligent, and I respect his reportage.

Still others say that it won't work unless 8GB or more of hardware memory is loaded into your Mac.

Since some notables on this forum have been quiet on the subject, I suspect it is not yet confirmed. A lot of the discussion has swirled around the definition of 64-bit. I don't care what 64-bit means in this context. I just want to know if an old Mac that has 8 GB of memory can crack the previous EXS load limit on 10.4.10.

I currently have 6.5 GB loaded on a DP 1.8 running the latest OSX. I hope to test the matter in the next few days. But if it is only possible with 8 GB or more in the Mac, my experiment would be of limited value.
Posted on Mon, Sep 17 2007 23:30
by Dom
Joined on Sat, Nov 13 2004, London, Posts 224
S8T has managed to get it working. Apparently the confusing thing is that Activity Monitor doesn't list the amount of memory used, but he managed to get nearly 8GB of EXS samples going. See the thread on the Apple forum:

He's the only one with real results in what has become probably the longest discussion on that forum.
Posted on Tue, Sep 18 2007 04:27
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1174
Thanks Dom. I waded through that compendious large thread and found S8T's later discovery.

"if a song is close to 3.5 GB in L7 and i add EXS instruments to it (with VM active in EXS), the program will crash.

"with EXS VM active, if a song is close to 3.5 GB in L8 and i add EXS instruments to it, they are added to the song and i can play them. the program doesn't crash. even if i add 20 instruments to the song, they are all still playable."
Posted on Tue, Sep 18 2007 05:17
by stupid8track
Joined on Thu, Mar 13 2003, Posts 230

i'm normally stupid8track but this forum update has reset my forum ID for now, so i have to post as this maxregistrations fellow until i can get it sorted.

i just read your post here and saw to my horror that it had a typo that i'm sure only added to the confusion over there -- the paranthetical in the first part of that is supposed to say "without VM active in EXS". big whoops on my part -- will have to go correct it over there but unfortunately apple doesn't allow for edits after 15 minutes.

anyway, it does seem on my system that the RAM ceiling is now lifted with EXS in Logic 8 but only, as you all have noted here, if Virtual Memory is active in EXS options. it remains to be seen how well these "extra" EXS instances will stream. hopefully they'll play just like normal. i have no reason to believe they won't, but i haven't used them "for real" yet.

and yes, activity monitor is not showing me a process that the EXS RAM is using, but it is showing that the RAM is used.

of course, with VM off, the same old 3.5 GB limit exists for Logic.

now if i can just get my old forum ID back here, all will be fine.


ps -- the preview makes it appear that this post will not have any breaks for paragraphs. which is not how it was composed. i'm sure everyone is aware, but just wanted to mention it.
Posted on Tue, Sep 18 2007 06:52
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1174
Hey S8T ! It's good to see you here again! Yeah, I've lost paragraphing too.

My own results after three hours' fiddling are curious. I'm on a dual 1.8 running OS 10.4.10 with 6.5 GB. I'm looking at AM, and I've got 1.94 GB in Logic, other programs add to about 100 MB, *but* AM is telling me that I've got 5.70 GB used and 816 MB left. VM is 7.81 GB. Two curiosities. 1. I kept loading and loading, and the Logic Pro "Real" didn't budge. Then I loaded just another EXS patch, and the Free read-out came tumbling down by about .6 GB in one big swoop. 2. I was able to coax a "Not Enough Memory" prompt out of Logic 8. I re-loaded a song at "disk drive fast," then changed it to slow, and as it re-loaded everything, the prompt came. It wouldn't re-load the remainder of saved patches nor could I manually load more EXS samples. But so far, with "fast" set to disk drive speed, I can't inch up far enough to get near the RAM limit. Like you, this isn't a real world test. but I'll note this much: Logic 7 would have stopped immediately with this load, and I can play-through in Logic 8. I don't want to get too caught up in the matter because Leopard will make this one great big moot point. Always good to read you.
Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2007 00:31
by stupid8track
Joined on Thu, Mar 13 2003, Posts 230


good to be around again.  especially as logic/EXS has finally improved in a real world way for RAM hogs.  :)

your experience with AM is mirroring mine -- logic only reports around 2 or so GB of RAM with EXS streaming on.  the RAM that the EXS samples are using doesn't appear in any process on my system, only in the "pie chart" at the bottom of AM.  i don't know why that is, but that's why you're seeing 5.7 GB used in your system even though only 1.94 GB is being used by logic.

i've documented some testing of the difference between EXS in L7 and L8 with some screengrabs and posted it in this thread over on the apple forums:


also, i'm not sure why you're getting "running out of memory" error when switching from "fast" to "slow".  i did all my testing with "slow" and "extensive" selected and never got "running out of memory" -- i could keep loading EXS even after i was out of free RAM and into swap space.  of course, i wouldn't expect that to be very usable.

anyway, i wish i could explain what, why, and how this is all happening, but i really have no idea.  i'm just excited about it.

and i do hope you're right about leopard making this moot.  it's my dream to one day be able to use all my system RAM in logic for any plugs.  and not have to have VM on in EXS to exceed 3.5 GB.

still, this is a very nice first step.


 EDIT - sorry but i don't know how to insert the link to the apple forum in a way that you can just click on it, so you'll have to cut and paste it.  but i did start a new thread over there for this post as that other thread was very long and the way apple threads their posts, i really had no idea where to put the info.

Posted on Wed, Sep 19 2007 05:52
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1174
Folks, do check out that thread. It is exhaustively detailed and verified.

I've frequently thought that the "one computer orchestra" is a misnomer because we are constantly re-defining just how much that one orchestra includes. But whatever it may be, we have taken a fantastic step towards the "one computer orchestra."

And anyone who has a second Mac and upgraded from Logic 7 has a complete SECOND orchestra driving 7 (with its XSKey) by MIDI with his Logic 8 computer (which requires no key).

Okay, why am I hitting RETURN ? This is all one big ugly block of text. S8T, I salute you sir and hope you can return to your composing.
Posted on Mon, Oct 01 2007 23:32
by JWL
Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2003, Posts 1274
I'm just including this article link here for convenience.

Apple Doc 306594
Logic Pro/Express 8: How the EXS24 sampler addresses RAM in Logic 8

Posted on Tue, Oct 02 2007 04:05
by ColinThomson
Joined on Sun, Mar 25 2007, Posts 242


In that it says:

  • Myth #1:

    • Myth: My application has to be 64-bit (or run on a G5) to use 64-bit data or do 64-bit math.

    • Fact: 32-bit applications already have the long long data type, which is 64 bits.

Colin Thomson 

Colin Thomson
Posted on Thu, Oct 04 2007 00:22
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 469
So has anyone been able to put this to a "real world" test yet? I ask because I'm currently hitting the ram limits in Logic 7 pretty frequently (only run a single Dual 2.5 G5 w/ 5GB ram). I'm wondering, when I upgrade to Logic 8, would it would be worth it to max out my RAM to 8GBs, or will it be mute if the CPU or Disk speed is not up to the task? How do you guys circumvent disk speed issues and/or CPU issues when writing, for example, large VSL orchestral pieces, or is it never a problem?
Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Thu, Oct 04 2007 05:37
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1174
A good question.

I'm running a dual 1.8 G5, and I routinely ran out of CPU (long before I ran out of memory). I was at 6.5 GB, and I maxed it out to 8 GB with the advent of Logic 8. I bought 2GB at Crucial for 131 USD out the door. Of course, I had to pull out the 2 x 256 MB DIMMS to accommodate the max 8 GB.

Now there are four ways in which performance has improved.

1. Logic / EXS handles more RAM (even though it is not fully documented in Activity Monitor).
2. Having more memory allows you to load more of the sample headers (disk speed slow), hence smoother playback.
3. Logic 8 has a safety I/O buffer that seems to be helping.
4. Somehow, Logic just processes playback differently. I can push the CPU to the limit and playback continues. I'm *not* saying that you can't CPU overload -- the threshold just seems higher before stopping. And I noticed that before upgrading the memory count.

You have an even faster computer, so your mileage may improve.

But let's look at two other indicators.

A. As your G5 will become a slave computer, you may be able to run 4 GB outboard EXS from Logic 7 (with its XS Key) and 4 GB of Vienna Ensemble. (The CPU remains a limiting factor. But the rules might be different for a slave computer in that it's used as a palette extension, and the amount of samples loaded may not translate as directly to lost CPU because, in theory, less would be asked of the slave, and it would be mostly relieved of its MIDI burden.).

B. Currently the dollar is falling against other currencies. The G5 memory prices that I was following actually went higher last month, and I assume that was tied to the dollar.

Summary: in the short-term, you'll get some improvement with more memory and Logic 8. And in the long-term, it's a good investment in the computer farm you could have.
Posted on Sun, Oct 07 2007 23:43
by JT3_Jon
Joined on Fri, Jun 04 2004, Palmdale CA (1 hour north of LA), Posts 469
THANK YOU FOR THE WONDERFUL POST plowman! You made some great points, especially the idea of one day using the G5 as a farm. I didn't even think of this as 99% of my samples are EXS, I thought I would always be stuck using a single Logic computer due to there not being "stand alone" EXS player, or its ability to be played in an AU host.

Do you (or anyone) have experience slaving a Logic 7 farm to Logic 8? It sound VERY interesting.

EDIT: I just realized that in a "worse case senerio" I can run K2 on the G5 and use it to translate EXS instruments. I dont know how feasable this is or how well it translates, but tied into some sort of AU host for the ability to open multiple Kontakts, this should be a viable long-term solution, correct? Do AU hosts use all 8GB or ram, or are they limited to 4gb like other programs?

p.s. I discovered to make line breaks on these forums, you have to code it. Just place a "br" inside "less than / greater than" signs (Shift-"," & Shift-".") and you get a line break (two = a blank line). Just thought I'd share :)
Epic Prog rock music using VSL samples - http://www.aeonsatori.com

System specs: Mac Pro 5,1 3.33GHz 12 core 48GB RAM
OS 10.11.6 Cubase 8.5 Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.27022(64-bit)

PC: Core i7-2600 32GB Ram, Windows 8, Vienna Ensemble Pro 6.0.17011(64-bit)
Posted on Mon, Oct 08 2007 07:47
by plowman
Joined on Sat, Dec 13 2003, Posts 1174
Woohoo, paragraphs. Thanks!

I'm glad the reponse was of help. Now, a few days later, I feel the need to sound a note of caution. The four points I made still hold true, but as my RAM loads creep ever higher, the old CPU issues have resurfaced. So the net gain is a larger palette, and if you can tolerate bouncing, it's good news. But I'm still taking a CPU loss with loaded RAM.

"Do you (or anyone) have experience slaving a Logic 7 farm to Logic 8?"

I don't. Like you, I only have one Mac. But I have confirmed through other forums that the XS Key is only needed when upgrading. It can then be attached to the slave computer, and Logic 8 will run on the master computer even when they are connected in a network. This means those who upgraded from Logic 7 and have a second G5 now have a stand-alone EXS unit.

The catch is that we lose offline bouncing with external gear. That's bigger than I thought it would be. I built a core template on my PC (Giga) thinking I'd use that for the basic sounds and keep EXS loads to the per song articulations. But I found I don't have the patience for live bouncing. It would be quite splendid if Apple / Logic allowed us to offline bounce EXS from other computers. I know that we can't node live with EXS, but when real-time is removed from the equation for an offline bounce, maybe the code writers could pull it off.

"I can run K2 on the G5 and use it to translate EXS instruments...." I don't know K2, but yes, that sounds feasible. The truth of most non-performance VSL instruments is that they have very straight-forward keymapping, and they translate well. VSL used some filtering with brass instruments. That probably won't translate, but it shouldn't be too hard to re-program filters in K2 by hand. I don't know what the Legato Tool situation is with K2, but I have successfully translated perf-leg instruments from Giga to EXS.
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