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After four weeks of VSL
Last post Sun, Mar 09 2003 by KingIdiot, 28 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2003 02:17
by tonylombardi
Joined on Thu, Jan 23 2003, Posts 65
I'm perfectly aware of the high range of the bassoon at the beginning of the Rite of Spring. It's mentioned with every mention of the work actually, in connection with the "riot" at the premiere.
Anyway you have the patch and I'm pretty sure good ears as well. Are the clicks less noticable in the normal range when you play it?
If they are, I'd be a little surprised, but then again I'm certainly no expert on bassoon.
I'm just drawing from my own experience in school band and recordings I listen to.

Anthony
Anthony Lombardi
www.anthonylombardi.com
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2003 12:14
by Iwan Roth
Joined on Thu, Nov 07 2002, FRANCE, but Swiss....., Posts 222
tonylombardi wrote:
I'm perfectly aware of the high range of the bassoon at the beginning of the Rite of Spring. It's mentioned with every mention of the work actually, in connection with the "riot" at the premiere.
Anyway you have the patch and I'm pretty sure good ears as well. I'm just drawing from my own experience in school band and recordings I listen to.

Anthony

Anthony,
Key noise “clicks” is a common thing to all woodwinds. Flute, clarinet, Oboe, Bassoon, saxophone do all have this more or less, depending on the brand and the condition of the instrument. Old instruments normally have more key noise as new ones. In live performance this is almost never a problem, because of distance player -listener and ambient noise. In recordings this is different and can be a serious problem. I do own many recordings of solo - or with piano - woodwind recordings on some the clicks are disturbing me on other I do not hear any.

Quote:
Are the clicks less noticable in the normal range when you play it?
If they are, I'd be a little surprised, but then again I'm certainly no expert on bassoon.

Certain frequencies do cover up the clicks. I think Dietz could explain this thing better than I. Just a small example: I have a laptop for internet in my studio which does noise, if the air condition is on I do not hear the laptop anymore, because of air flow, which is more pleasant and much lower in level as the laptop. I think this is also how Dither in audio does work.

Iwan
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2003 17:33
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8173
Yep, this is a psycho-acoustical phenomenon called masking, which appears in the time-domain as well as in the frequency-domain. If you're interested in this topic, do a Google-search, I'm sure there is quite some information available online.

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2003 20:11
by tonylombardi
Joined on Thu, Jan 23 2003, Posts 65
I know about masking, but don't you need a similar frequency range as the noise in order to mask it? That's why I mentioned that metallic clicks are very high frequency, way higher than the highest note a bassoon can play.
Anyway I'm all talked out on this topic!
Anthony Lombardi
www.anthonylombardi.com
Posted on Fri, Mar 07 2003 22:36
by KingIdiot
Joined on Sat, Nov 30 2002, Posts 400
The recordings of a basson itself can differ in percieved noise ,dependin gon the frequency, your room acoustics, and playback system. This can change the amount of percieved level of the clicks....I guess

Still the basson itself would generally have clicks on every note transition, and depending on how noisy that specific key is, the louder/quieter the click will be.


Now, Herbs right, add some ambient noise in, and use an impulse or tweak some reverb with some filtered out highs, and you lose alot of the "clickyness".

Really...I am an Idiot
Posted on Sat, Mar 08 2003 00:06
by Netvudu
Joined on Sun, Dec 15 2002, Madrid, Spain, Posts 63
Quote:
Yep, this is a psycho-acoustical phenomenon called masking, which appears in the time-domain as well as in the frequency-domain. If you're interested in this topic, do a Google-search, I'm sure there is quite some information available online.


Absolutely. I recommend the (free) guide in pdf format at Izotope site on the subject of dithering. Although it comments from time to time about their mastering product (Ozone) there is an amazing amount of interesting info on the subject of dithering.
I was a real ignorant on anything related to this stuff and now I´m an ignorant who understands dithering Big Smile
3d animation? hah! have you looked through your window. There´s plenty of it...and pre-rendered!
Posted on Sun, Mar 09 2003 07:17
by avatarprod
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Posts 11
I've read a lot of "reasons" why the clicking is there, and how it can/should be masked, filtered, etc....

Perhaps it's simply too darn loud and it's bugging some people--for good reason. There is a balance between authenticity and making too much of the things that really aren't what the instrument is supposed to be about.
Posted on Sun, Mar 09 2003 21:21
by KingIdiot
Joined on Sat, Nov 30 2002, Posts 400
just lower the volume, put it "back" in reverb with less dry signal and some high frequency filtering, and add some natuaral "hall noise", the clicking should be minimal or not noticable then.

Really...I am an Idiot
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