revision of leitmotif criticism

[William]

Perhaps this doesn't need a complete thread but I didn't know what one to put it on. I had been commenting elsewhere, in the light of Herrmann's practices, that the leitmotif is not needed and a mere convention in film scoring. However it occurred to me that on at least one type of film - the epic, or something similar - it can be of value. I noticed this on Lord of the Rings, which because it is so huge perhaps needs the motifs to instantly connect things in a way that Herrmann's symphonic developmental style would not. Though it is arguable I suppose.

That is a great score, and very impressive in that Shore did the orchestration himself.

[evan evans]

William,

I see what you mean, but Lietmotifs were not necessary in LOTR. It is enough to simply have motifs, whether by color or implication. It's not necessary to have melodic motifs, which so strongly break through the subconscious/consious barrier of the audience member. I find it annoying.

That said LOTR score is VEEEEERY good! [:)]

Evan Evans

[Ivan P]

Do u think this also applies to tv shows? do you think there is a need to have a clear leitmotiv in a tv shows credits instead of say, a moody theme? What would be according to you the best way to make a tv theme them?

Thks,

Regards,

Ivan

[William]

Evan,

You've made a suggestion that wasn't brought up before (or at least I don't remember it) - that the leitmotif creates a consciously perceived intrusion into the otherwise subconscious experience of the music in a film. That is an insight I find extremely interesting.

You are aware I hope of how much I appreciate Herrmann (translation: obsessed with) so I am not really arguing. It is just interesting to think about.

Of course one can say that "breaking the conscious/unconscious barrier" is not a bad thing. This is even suggested by Max Steiner, master of the leitmotif who explicitly stated "If the audience doesn't notice the music then why write it?"

On the other hand again, two epics come to mind that Herrmann scored - Jason and the Argonauts and Mysterious Island. While they are not anywhere near as large as Lord of the Rings, they are a welter of different, vivid, extreme scenes on a large canvas, and one can imagine from that basis how Herrmann might have scored a huge film. And I'm sure he would not have switched to the leitmotif, and succeeded brilliantly.

[evan evans]

William,

Thanks.

Well, my opinion is that it's possible to write music in such a way that the movie seems to accompany it, and at the same time it is entirely subconcious.

I do not agree with Steiner on that point. But, come on, that was like 80 years ago! I think cinema has become a bit more refined on most levels.

My goal with my techniques is to achieve a kind of purism of the art. One where the music is like an invisible narration, a kind of "master map" to the movie that is completely understood yet completely unknown and unheard.

Whatever. I am tired. Not enough sleep. And in another iChat conversation.

Evan Evans

[dpcon]

As I mentioned in another thread there is such a kind of treatment in almost any art that can de deemed "operatic." LOTR IS opera. To be operatic you must make use of it's established conventions while hopefully establishing a few of your own. Big, soaring, recognizable motif's are a part of the opera theatre experience. Without them you miss a vital part of that experience.

Realism or even just a more organically meshed score are not fair applications to be used in film because it's not real to have a camera, lights, or crew, watching over human activity with an 80 piece orchestra commenting all the way through. Film is about the lights, the camera, the action, and even about the bombast pasted all over the results musically.

The choice of scoring a film one way or the other is just that - a choice. To bar the use of a fundamental element (leitmotif or whatever) that ultimately is the purpose of a film (to give an experience) is contrary to the core nature of the art.

Dave Connor

[William]

Very true, Dave. Especially considering that opera is filled with conventional highly conscious artifice that is accepted by the audience - even demanded as the whole nature of the form.

[dpcon]

To clarify,

I am not dismissing ANY approach to film score. Whatever works, works.

The type of Opera I was referring to was Dramatic (19th century really.) We all know the many different styles of opera now, just as we know the many different film genre's.

My point is someone may come up with the ultimate solution or approach to film score but that won't work if the film cries out for a specific genre of music and approach that has come before (opera is one example.) Because ultimately that is what the film is about. Not just the story but the story told a certain way, with a certain sound, and with certain conventions.

There's room for all approaches, methods, and philosophies as long as they result in creating a worthy film.

Dave Connor

[evan evans]

There's enough lack of understanding in society that it makes room for awkward approaches. That's one of the nice things about dealing with the abstract. Just because I will attempt to demystify and explain it down to it's core doesn't mean enough people will be able to use it like that. It still may be entirely feasible that people like garbage. Do you really think Britney Spears makes so much money because it's fundamentally brilliant music?


It's an art after all. And many people still buy bad art. But the nice thing about fundamentally good art is that MOST people like it.

Evan Evans

[William]

The specific example of the leitmotif useage that is so powerful that made me post this thread is at the end of "Return of the King."

Here, Shore orchestrates the "Shire" or Hobbit theme as the King and all his new subjects bow to the humble little Hobbits. This theme was previously heard only in the pastoral setting of the Shire and references to it, but here is orchestrated more strongly, with a forte full orchestral setting. It is a magnificent scene showing how so much depends upon these so-called "little people," and the music underscores it brilliantly. I doubt this would have been possible without the use of the leitmotif!

Sorry to completely contradict myself, but I'm afraid that is normal with me.

[evan evans]

Well said, William. I believe you are correct. It did that. Score is so neat isn't it?

[:)]

Evan Evans