My quest to shoe-horn my entire studio into a single G5 Dual running DP under DAE (with Pro Tools HD2 hardware) is just about there. I’ve gone from 3 G5s Duals (each with 2 FW800 drives and 2 SATA drives) down to 2 G5s, and am trying to get to 1. The TDM plugs handle all the heavy lifting for FX, EQ, etc., and there are 6 LaCie FW800 250GB drives attached for all VIs, including the complete Kontakt Horizon series. Problem is, as I’ve found out, you cannot daisy-chain 6 FW800 drives off the built-in FW port on the G5 because you will flood the FW bus. Hook up that many drives and simple tasks such as copying data between any 2 takes forever, even if only 2 of the drives are actually working (bandwidth is reduced by just hooking up that many drives, even when idle). After talking to LaCie tech, and with one open slot in my G5, I installed their FW800 PCI card for 3 of the drives, but found that the FW bus is still slightly overloaded as they recommend a max of 2 drives per card (unless they’re just being used for storage). So, my setup now is 2 FW drives on the built-in FW port and 2 on the FW card, and this is working for now. However, with all the libraries accessing so much data, I’ll need more drives.

I’m aware that RAID setups have proven to not help performance with Kontakt/VSL, etc., but I think this is largely because most drives these days are fast enough for software samplers without being configured in a RAID setup. However, overloading the bus is where the problem lies, and that is why I’m considering the Apple RAID system because, according to Apple’s description “each 7200 RPM hard drive module connects to a dedicated Ultra ATA drive channel to eliminate bottlenecks and maximize the 400MB/s Fibre Channel host connection. Throughput is assured, which means bandwidth remains constant, even as more drives are added in a fabric configuration.”

So the reason for my post on this is to try to find more info using Apple’s RAID with software samplers, et al. Has anyone tried one, or can anyone point to a source of info on the subject as it relates to music applications. I know Apple privately displayed a super Logic Pro system at NAMM that included 2 of their RAIDs, but can’t find any more info about who set it up or how/if it worked.

(BTW, I’ve found that with the entire Horizon series now in Kontakt on my DP system, I’m relying on my 2nd G5 that runs Logic/VSL Pro Edition very little, if at all, for most projects.)

S8T,
Thanks so much for your input. I just spoke with Rick at MacGurus -- great guy, great resource! Everything you always wanted to know about hard drives...he confirmed what you said. With SATA, by default, you get drive channel throughput independence, unlike Firewire 800 (which is only good for 1 or 2 drive setups). He went on to explain that the Apple RAID would most likely work despite the fact that's it's a RAID, but that a simple SATA 6 or 8 multi-drive non-RAID setup would work just as well, if not better (and a lot cheaper). He also explained why he thinks a non-RAID setup does work better for sample-streaming (has to do with with RAIDs retrieving data sequentially), but I don't feel qualified to re-explain it. He also mentioned that I could very easliy recycle/convert my LaCie FW drives to SATA. He didn't know if the Apple can be configured as non-RAID.

Looks like the new Sonnet SATA card with 6 drives is the way to go. I had thought about getting this card before I went with the LaCie FW card, to avoid having to switch drive types, but I'll have to go with what works. I'll let you know how this all plays out -- thanks again.
Gary

Gary,

I have a RAID5 setup. I can tell you that when you are running a system of, as I am, 6 drives, that a drive fails about once a month. If you do RAID0 your entire RAID Volume will be wiped out the moment that happens (and it will). If you do RAID1 you will need twice as many drives as hard disk space needed. RAID5 from NetCell is what I am using and I am very happy. I have rebuilt the Volume already 3 times, avoiding any lost data.

Evan Evans

If one drive fails you need to get right on top of it, and click REBUILD, before a 2nd drive fails and you have total data loss. You may still use your computer and the Volume while it wipes the bad drive and fills it with the missing data over the next 24 hours (although I try not to).

I put mine in a RAID Scorpio case with a ATA Power Tester Adapter, and also bough tsom elong SHIELDED Sata cables and a PCI 8 Cable Clamper Port Bracket.

Evan Evans

What I don't quite understand is that Tascam speaks fondly about RAID for Giga, in fact the reports of 500+ voices are from machines with RAIDs.

So is it the Mac implementation that's not a help or simply that RAID isn't a help?

And if it's the latter, why does Evan Evans, master of running 50 billion voices and loading 38 billion programs, use it?

It can happen for various reasons. I got 6 drives running round the clock. And my reporting software is very good about finding errors on the drive, NOT like the Apple drivers for internal drives, etc. So it NEEDS to rebuild about once a month, to protect from more critical circumstances.

Evan Evans

Nigel,

I just intalled a pair of external 250GB SATA drives using 2 of these enclosures:

http://dealsonic.com/kisssashseat.html

Pretty basic, but so far so good.

Nick

sorry it took me so long to reply - i was away in the real world.

i agree with you that we should be able to operate entirely via streaming with Logic/EXS. the problem with your current set-up just reflects the problem with LOGIC at the moment - Logic can't use multiple drives to any positive effect, either for sample streaming or for audio playback.

yes, you can stream from multiple drives with EXS/Logic - but you do not increase the point at which data is dropped by doing so. same with audio playback with multiple drives in logic - you can playback from multiple drives, but you don't increase the number of simultaneous tracks you can playback.

in my experience, RAID performs similarly to a single drive from the RAID (8 x 15K scsi drive RAID performs the same as a single 15K scsi drive) - for both streaming and track count. i certainly haven't tried every RAID out there, but i've tried both hardware and software RAIDs and NONE of them have improved performance with Logic. they don't perform worse than a single drive, but not better either.

this is why i am so curious about Gary's coming experience with DP and Kontakt. because the 'single drive performance' limitation in Logic is due to Logic (PT isn't limited to 1 drive for audio playback - adding a second drive there increases performance significantly). it might very well be that DP with Kontakt can actually use multiple drives for streaming.

personally, i can't wait for the day that Logic can use multiple drives successfully. hopefully, the coming update with PDC will involve some sort of audio engine rewrite which allows for this. because, at the moment, RAID only really gets you MUCH faster load times. at least in my experience.

so, IMO, you shouldn't invest in anything else yet (for logic/exs) because you really won't see any improvement for your investment. wait to see how logic looks after the PDC update. and wait to see how Gary does with Kontakt and DP and multiple drives.

or give giga a look. it seems that it doesn't have trouble with multiple drives - but it's been years since i've used giga (back when it was still gigasampler).

hope this helps.

i don't actually know what is going on with logic and RAID - but in my experience, RAID (hardware or software) has never performed better than an equivalent single drive from that RAID.

and i don't think it has anything to do with any 'limit' on streaming data as a hardware ATA RAID had worse performance than a 15K scsi drive (or even a 10K scsi drive, for that matter).

wish i knew why this was, but i don't. just reporting my experience.

cheers

gary

well, that is too bad.

strange time we live in. the power we have at our fingertips is amazing.

but at the same time, we are so close to having so much more.

ah well - twas always thus, i guess.

maybe the coming PDC update for logic will include an audio engine rewrite which will allow EXS to use multiple disks to benefit.

i ain't holding my breath, though.

sorry to hear that kontakt is throwing up roadblocks. please post back with any headway.

cheers