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Epic Violins for our "Pro's" - an offer
Last post Tue, May 02 2006 by ISM, 326 replies.
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Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 15:23
by herb
Joined on Mon, Aug 05 2002, Posts 4622
I was looking for an additional attractive premium bonus for our Pro Edition users who plan to upgrade to Vienna Instruments Orchestral Cube, or the Orchestral Strings collections, and got this idea:

We could schedule - propably in January/February - six recording sessions (3 days) to produce an Epic violin collection of your choice.

That means we discuss here which preferences you have and we will setup a articulation list which is producable in this time schedule.
Section size of the Violins around 22 players.

Everybody who owns Pro Edition (COP, or the Strings or Performance Set) and is upgrading will get this stuff for free.

What do you think?

best
Herb
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 15:26
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
This sounds an excellent idea Herb. I would certainly be interested in a new legato instrument that had more than 2 dynamic levels, as the middle, warm vibrant sound is so hard to get with samples at the moment.

DG
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Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 15:28
by mirabile
Joined on Tue, Sep 03 2002, Melbourne, Posts 185
Herb

Great idea, but how about 26 violins, 14 firsts plus 12 seconds?

Regards

Mirabile
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 15:32
by Christian Marcussen
Joined on Mon, Nov 10 2003, Posts 1508
Indeed an exelent idea.

Great move...

DG's suggestion tickles my fancy as well Smile

But I guess recording legato intervals cant be done that fast?

I would love some really warm, lush, romoantic violins (actually I would prefere Celli, but it seems Violins are the choice)
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 15:33
by Nordkrog
Joined on Sun, Nov 27 2005, Posts 43
Fantastic, Cool Cool

And I agree with DG in his request for a performance instrument with more warmth.

Will this update be awailable for EXS (and the other old formats)??

FN
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 15:40
by PaulR
Joined on Mon, Dec 22 2003, England, Posts 2371
Herb!!!!! Please make this a 'sticky'. This is a great idea - wow! Make it a sticky so it doesn't get lost in all the other posts please. Many thanks.
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 15:56
by Christian Marcussen
Joined on Mon, Nov 10 2003, Posts 1508
Oh. I think I should mention... I'm more interested in the warmth, human tone, rather than insisiting on a huge ensemble. 14 would be just as good if they just could capture the John Barry richness then its swell.

Thing is maybe your Expressivo patches already opbtain this?
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 16:14
by Dom
Joined on Sat, Nov 13 2004, London, Posts 224
Good idea and thanks for listening. Size doesn't matter to me so much either - what would be great is to have some portamento and "sul" instruments at p and mp (at the moment we just have f).

I will also second the "warmth" request, probably as in more vibrato but "dolce" rather than "expressivo". The mV samples we have so far sound to me "poco vib", but I know that's the Viennese style...
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 16:38
by Rodney_G
Joined on Mon, Aug 01 2005, Posts 61
Herb,

First of all, let me just say...wow! This is a great offer. Big Smile

Second, although I'm not a Pro Ed, Strings or Perf set owner at this point (I have Opus), I'll post my suggestions anyway if it's ok. If not else, people that are not qualified for free versions might be able to buy this product sometime in the future so it might be of great interest to us as well.

My suggestions are a mix of my own views and views that I've heard many others express regarding the topic of VSL and Violins.

Sections:

Seems a lot of people would prefer separate 1st and 2nd Violin sections and rather large size ones at that (hollywood style). However, there seems to be some disagreement among people regarding the need for this and if recording time does not allow, one larger 22 player section will probably be great for most as well. Regardless, I think many would bevery happy with a "large" sounding section.

Sound:

DG and Christian already mentioned the "warm romantic sound". This is high on the wishlist by many. You see a lot of people expressing having difficulty achieving a full, warm, romantic and lush (yet without sounding muffled or without "air") sound with the current Violins. Providing this would make a lot of people very happy I'm sure.

Articulation:

Another thing people mention a lot is having difficulty achieving smooth legato with the current Violins, especially slower and expressive "romantic sounding" legato phrases. More than 2 layer legato as DG suggested would of course also be great if possible.

Expression:

Yet another thing and one that also is related to the "romantic" sound is the vibrato. The possibility of a stronger and more expressive vibrato would be great, since that's one of the things many also seem to miss with the current Violins.

Overall:

In short, I think what many would like to see (including myself) could be described as: "Romantic, Expressive and Warm" but not without the ability to to produce agressive sounds and hard attacks as well. I've seen countless comments about hard times trying to achieve a "warm, expressive vibrato hollywood sound" with the current VSL Violins. IMO, this means that the new Violins would be best made having these qualities which the original ones might lack according to many users.

Again, I realise that perhaps neither me nor my views are of any importance here, but if not then maybe the fact that I've seen countless others express the pretty much exact same views might be of some remote interest at least.

Sorry for the long text and thank's for your time

R
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 16:49
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5701
I feel this is the single most important thing - musically - that VSL can do. The only weakness it has in my opinion, in a purely musical sense (not technically), is the fact that the ensemble violins, in legato, alternate between a very dry, almost senza vibrato p, and a very loud f or portamento. And so there is NO lyrical legato for emotional, espressivo but NOT extremely loud violin lines.

THIS IS THE MAIN THING THAT VIOLINS ARE FAMOUS FOR!!!!! IT IS MISSING!!!!

(Sorry, was that just a bit overstated? I'll try and calm down now. Moving right along...)

If this current approach is merely expanded to huge, massive numbers, I don't think this would help that much. Most people don't need gigantically massive violin sections, but rather richer-sounding normal sections. "Romantic Strings" - that was the name talked about before, and it indicates the quality that is currently not really represented by any sample library.

Specifically, in legato, if the middle dynamic could be recorded - an mp, that was exactly like the espressivo quality of the regular horns and the Epic Horns in their mp legato - THIS WOULD BE TREMENDOUS! In other words, a very fluid, lyrical, delicate expressive legato. Not a dry, merely "connect-the-notes" type such as exists now in the p, but one in which you hear the beautiful singing note transitions with tiny audible differences in timing between the individual players that make for a lyrical legato string line. This would be not a portamento exactly, but halfway between portamento and legato.

Anything that enhanced this lyrical, espressivo side of string playing would be MORE USED THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE FEATURE OF THE LIBRARY.
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 16:53
by Christian Marcussen
Joined on Mon, Nov 10 2003, Posts 1508
William said it... Cool
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 16:54
by Marc B
Joined on Sat, Aug 09 2003, Canada, Posts 109
That would be awesome!
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 16:58
by Rodney_G
Joined on Mon, Aug 01 2005, Posts 61
Yes, good points by William also, although I think one should still go for the large section 22 player option if possible.

William pretty much said it himself when using the Epic Horns as comparison...since that hornsection is double the size of a regular one. Personally I'm pretty convinced the section size will be of importance for the overall sound. Besides, if you make a brand new Violinsection, why do it the same as before? VSL already has a 14 player one, so I think the appropriate question rather is: why not use a larger one?

R
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 17:03
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1657
William wrote:
I feel this is the single most important thing - musically - that VSL can do. The only weakness it has in my opinion, in a purely musical sense (not technically), is the fact that the ensemble violins, in legato, alternate between a very dry, almost senza vibrato p, and a very loud f or portamento. And so there is NO lyrical legato for emotional, espressivo but NOT extremely loud violin lines.

THIS IS THE MAIN THING THAT VIOLINS ARE FAMOUS FOR!!!!! IT IS MISSING!!!!

(Sorry, was that just a bit overstated? I'll try and calm down now. Moving right along...)

If this current approach is merely expanded to huge, massive numbers, I don't think this would help that much. Most people don't need gigantically massive violin sections, but rather richer-sounding normal sections. "Romantic Strings" - that was the name talked about before, and it indicates the quality that is currently not really represented by any sample library.

Specifically, in legato, if the middle dynamic could be recorded - an mp, that was exactly like the espressivo quality of the regular horns and the Epic Horns in their mp legato - THIS WOULD BE TREMENDOUS! In other words, a very fluid, lyrical, delicate expressive legato. Not a dry, merely "connect-the-notes" type such as exists now in the p, but one in which you hear the beautiful singing note transitions with tiny audible differences in timing between the individual players that make for a lyrical legato string line. This would be not a portamento exactly, but halfway between portamento and legato.

Anything that enhanced this lyrical, espressivo side of string playing would be MORE USED THAN ANY OTHER SINGLE FEATURE OF THE LIBRARY.



One more nod for William's comments. Herb - do what you did going from standard horns to Epic horns. The latter - even though larger seem so much warmer and lyrical. Size may be important to get there (with samples) - I don't know - but I really think you know. Your later releases (Epic Horns and Chamber strings show improvement over the stuff recorded 3-4 years ago) - that's good. Us consumers expect and welcome continual improvement.

Nail this recording and programming and you will eliminate the really only weak chink in your armour (strings).

Many thanks for the offer.


Rob
what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 17:15
by tomhartman
Joined on Fri, May 07 2004, Florida, Posts 567
Great idea.

Size DOES matter. One poster mentioned John Barry. Good heavens, John Barry IS working with more than 14 1st violins! Wink

The most important thing to me would be to have at least the number of violins Herb has suggested, and ...here's the kicker...

PLEASE LISTEN TO THE VIOLINS in the HIGHER REGISTERS. This is where most libraries start sounding strident or otherwise offensive, VSL included. Right now it is principally because arrangements that use the very high registers are seldom written when the arranger knows the section will be smaller. So Herb, if you are doing 20 or more violins, much of that will be alleviated. Right now I have to mix in samples from other libraries to lessen the stridency and thicken the texture of high violin legato, "soaring" sections. Often those other samples are playing with more expression as well.

This is a great offer, I am wondering if you could clarify one thing:

Would this offer only apply to those buying the FULL Standard set? I own Performance Set, and all the the Pro Edition libraries. If I couldn't afford the whole new standard edition at once, and wanted to start with just the strings, would this offer apply?

Thanks
Tom H
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 17:23
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5701
Yes, I am not against the bigger size at all, just wanted to emphasize that performance aspect. Excellent point by Rob Elliot about the Epic horns warmth.

Also, Tom bringing up John Barry - absolutely. He is THE master of "Epic Strings." That is funny, since I was just listening to "Walkabout" which has the most soaring violin melody ever done for film music, and "Lion in Winter." Not to mention "Somewhere in Time" not to mention... etc., etc. ,etc. If these strings were specifcally for playing John Barry music - that would nail it.
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 17:26
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1657
Good point Tom. The higher registers I AVOID (rather not have them to there to call attention to themselves - ofter use horns, flutes, clarinets if possible - WOULD REALLY like soaring strings though.)

"Pinched and nasally" is how I would describe ALL string upper range libraries. Add to that 'Metalic' and void of warmth. IMHO.

I know VSL has a purist mentality (which in most cases has served you well), but perhaps with Epic Strings (ES), there should be some post processing (filters, eq, - whatever it takes to get this sound.)


Rob
what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 17:30
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1657
William wrote:
Yes, I am not against the bigger size at all, just wanted to emphasize that performance aspect. Excellent point by Rob Elliot about the Epic horns warmth.

Also, Tom bringing up John Barry - absolutely. He is THE master of "Epic Strings." That is funny, since I was just listening to "Walkabout" which has the most soaring violin melody ever done for film music, and "Lion in Winter." Not to mention "Somewhere in Time" not to mention... etc., etc. ,etc. If these strings were specifcally for playing John Barry music - that would nail it.



William - dances with wolves is also not half bad example of what a warm soaring string section SHOULD sound like.


Herb - you nail this one and you will carve out a niche noone currently owns!!!


Rob
what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 17:36
by Christian Marcussen
Joined on Mon, Nov 10 2003, Posts 1508
hehe.. dances with wolves was the exact soundtrack I had in mind when I mentioned John Barry Smile
Posted on Tue, Nov 29 2005 17:39
by PaulR
Joined on Mon, Dec 22 2003, England, Posts 2371
Yes - I thought I could rely on you Bill.

The parallel with Epic Horns - the best horn library out there - is a very good one.

Suddenly John Barry gets the spotlight. Wow!

Big Smile
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