Organizing your orchestration/composition

[Drilian]

One of the main problems I have when composing (and orchestrating - the two are currently somewhat simultaneous in my mind) is that I don't have a good system for keeping track of many parts at once. Most of my songs end up being a layering of real-time improvised parts. This can pull together rather well, but it ends up being rather limiting.

I find myself having to stick to a single chord progression (because when improvising other parts, if I change the chord structure, I tend to botch later parts).

For instance, take this song:

http://deadlyredcube.com/Longing.mp3">http://deadlyredcube.com/Longing.mp3

With this song, I started with the mostly-arpeggio harp part, then layered on a more melodic one. There are points in it where I backed it down and thought "okay, something else will play here" but I didn't really have any sort of plan (which is what this whole post boils down to).

Then I layered on the top two violins, then the cellos and basses, finally adding the flute.

None of this was particularly planned out, but it did go rather quickly (from opening Sonar to the final mix it was about an hour and a half of work) and it came together rather well (albeit, it's a bit repetitive).

However, as stated earlier, this whole process is wicked limiting. I find myself wrestling with my process. If I'm sticking to a single instrument (especially piano), I can do fairly well (I'm very happy with http://mopofdestiny.com/ost/01-Piano%20Of%20Destiny.mp3).

How do you all do it? How do you keep your thoughts organized as you compose? Do you plan parts ahead of time? Do you have some kind of mystical shorthand that helps you scratch out parts on paper really quickly?

Inquiring minds want to know.


Thanks for any advice, and I apologize if this post seems to be a bit rambling.

Josh

[PolarBear]

I'm thinking of landmarks in the composition when I start out. That may be only a vague point, and even point to change, as I'm not doing it all for me and not as a job. I'm not writing these down, but if you feel comfortable with pen and paper, you could sketch out these a bit. So the main point you might miss at getting ideas, that though there are minor changes, I do miss such thing as a landmark in the first piece you posted. It's mainly building around the same thing not varying it's style. That's fine for a piece with me, but if you say this is reflecting most of your compositions, you should watch a bit for more changes in volume, build ups, hit points that do bring some variation in there. The piano piece does that for me.

A thing that helped me quite some is trying to mockup existing recordings and getting close to it. If that's too time intensive, you should listen to your favorite recordings with thinking about how you would mockup this or that in the piece. It should give you some more ideas about variation in orchestration, instrumentation and instrument articulation. (Actually I found that more instruments in orchstration are more forgiving to a bad orchestration than only a few.)

All the best,
PolarBear

[PaulR]

@Drilian said:

For instance, take this song:

http://deadlyredcube.com/Longing.mp3">http://deadlyredcube.com/Longing.mp3

http://mopofdestiny.com/ost/01-Piano%20Of%20Destiny.mp3).

Josh

I won't bore you to death with my history or where I studied and what I did.

The first one is basically crap. That's Ok though because you have to write these kind of repetitive things to progress (everyone does) - especially when you probably don't have any formal training in composition and orchestration, which most of us don't.

The first one reminds me of what Pink Floyd used to do in the late sixties (after dear old Sid Barrett had gone mad and left the group - GRHS) - with different instruments obviously - but more importantly - with a vocal over the top. So you would get this constant droning of repeated chords with the vocals helping to make it more interesting. That's the thing about repitition - if you're going to repeat lines you need to change the orchestration - a lot, or at least build it up. There are many classical examples of this - Ravel for instance - or Pachobel (sic?).

Another thing that's worth considering is the use of the same instrument that's playing a lead over the top of a drone. For instance - the flute. The average human listener gets bored with the same sound after a while - so it may be worth switching the lead parts with other instruments from the woodwinds in this case. BUT - you need to have a really interesting thematic lead line - not just rambling with a patch that you picked at random and then played on a keyboard a la improvisation. You need to work on it.

The second one. What I would now try and do just as an exercise is to orchestrate the opening section before the first change (obviously). Nice chord progression and quite filmic in some ways. The secret may be to stop thinking in terms of chords - and more in terms of parts.

[stephank]

Hey you all.

I work in very different way then you guys. I also like (and need) to improvise lot. But I do this normaly only with a pianoi sound (or on a grand, if available). When it comes to the process of real composing, I go to my desk with pen and paper.

Of course this is soemtimes not the fastest way if you are working under a tough timframe, but for me its the only way I get a good result.

Writing on paper makes things I do much more clearer, then "jamming" them into my dwa. Its easyer to take the overview about my work and the whole concept.

I think, that playing around with sounds can be a serious trap, because you get pretty soon a result which sounds more or less good, no matter what the quality or structure of your composition is.

But this is only about me and my workflow. I know some really good other composers, which work the way you do.... and they are working great.


Best regards,

Stephan

[mkelly]

I think an important point to keep in mind is that eventually, after much practice, you are going to find your method or groove for orchestrating.

Utilize your sequencing programs to their full extent. For example, in DP (which I use) you can create multiple new sequences within the same project - I find this useful for sketching out different ideas or different approaches.

Also remember that you are essentially not restricted in the number of tracks - so create a few "idea tracks" where you can save lines that you like but don't necessarily want to use yet (or at all).

As far as writing - to a large extent I like to let the music dictate where it goes. If one is not restricted by film or the such, you might as well stretch your legs so to speak. I wrote the track "Alignment" using this approach:

http://www.myspace.com/cainenabled

Best,

MK

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

I come from jazz performance training, so I basically write best when it's kind of like improv. I do figure out various landmark of the piece, and I let myself brainstorm before anything (I happens mostly when I try to sleep [:(] )

[hetoreyn]

Yeah this is something I have a problem with sometimes. You'll get a small portion of a tune cooking nicely and then you find it really hard to move on out of it cos you made the piece you were working on so full.

My remedy is that I try to perform and learn my whole tune first. Recording now and again to remember ideas and some specific melodies that I like.

I tend to compose using only one sound. And I try very hard not to move onto another instrument until I have my tune correct. Of course it doesn't always work out that way but I try.

So I use either a piano, or synth strings .. or a flute to perform the entire piece .. and then, and only when I'm happy with the overall piece will I begin to assign parts to the orchestra. This makes sure that I don't end up with a 4 bar loop that gets totally orchestrated and doesn't let me go anywhere else.

Hope this advice helps .. it usually serves me pretty well.

[clarkcontrol]

Great thread...

I'm from an improv background as well (I improv classical for ballet classes and jazz on gigs) so I can definitely sympathize with the problems described here.

Something touched on here that I think is vital (to me) is thinking macro THEN micro. Always think with the big picture in mind. It sure is tempting to keep those strings going, for example, but then you kill the first three rule of orchestration: Variety, variety, variety.

I'm somewhat limited by my computer resources, as well, so planning ahead serves a dual purpose.

Lastly, I like to leave lots of space. I tend to believe that sample rendered compositions sound more real when things aren't so heavily layered. In fact, everything will have a part except for the occasional double (bassoon-violas or something) in order to preserve and feature the unique colors of the orchestra.

John Williams inspires me in this way. He constantly changes color combinations, is unafraid to expose whatever orchestration he's using, etc.

Clark

[PolarBear]

@hetoreyn said:

You'll get a small portion of a tune cooking nicely and then you find it really hard to move on out of it

Don't remind me of the dozen's of unfinished pieces lying and rotting on my hard drives.

PolarBear

[sgainar]

All good suggestions here. I used to just sit down and start writing. I would start at the beginning and start writing/recording having no idea where I would be 8 – 10 bars down the line. This is fine for shorter cues, but longer pieces would meander on with no real direction and definitely lacked that “closure” a well written piece of music has.

Over the years I’ve developed some techniques that work well for me:

Someone suggested a timeline. Create a timeline/chart on a blank sheet of paper. Mark your hit-points or “landmarks” you may want to hit. Draw a curve along the top of your time line to signify dynamics, intensity (what I mostly use), tempo, orchestrational “thickness”, etc. This curve would start on your timeline (y-axis) and go up/down (x-axis) as you dictate. Make multiple curves if necessary. This technique forces you to think about the big picture and the overall flow of your piece – and you’ll find ideas coming to you as you do this.

Next, sketch some themes and progressions on paper or software notation program. Use techniques like inversion and retrograde to create even more variations of your ideas. This is essentially your “color pallet” of themes for your composition. You can (and will) obviously create more as you work - this will help keep your music varied, but focused and aurally unified as well.

Without getting into all the theory of form and structure, I often find myself writing in “threes”. That is, my composition will have a (1) beginning, (2) middle, & (3) end, my beginning will have a beginning, middle and end, etc. – thinking this way helps keep you focused on how the music you’re working on now relates to your composition as a whole.

Ideally for me, my process would be (after above prep. work):

1. Sketch entire piece
2. Orchestrate entire piece (using software notation program)
3. Sequence/record

But, alas, in this world of media composition, time is always of the essence. My process is usually:

Sketch/sequence/record simultaneously – my work is finished product
Sketch then orchestrate with notation program – performed by live players
Sketch then orchestrate/sequence/record – combination of both

Keep in mind you have to find the process that works best for you. Good luck.

Scott

[mverta]

My first approach is pencil-and-paper, then later the sequencing/mock-up.

My second approach - if I need to get to the mock-up faster - is to use the score pad for lead lines, and then literally "blocks" of shading in the other sections so I can visually see where the orchestration will be. So I might have horns on the melody, with a quick figure in the strings followed by squiggles for a bit, and then maybe some indications for ww flourishes. No notes, per se, but sort of non-standard graphic notation.

This way I have a visual cue for how my color palette is shaping up, and I find most of the time I adhere closely to these sketches.

I should say, though, that I compose orchestrated - they're a simultaneous process. I have never been able to separate the drama of a piece from its precise orchestration, so I can't actually conceive of writing, say, a piano reduction and exploding it - despite all those godforsaken exercises I did in school.


_Mike

[skyy38]

@vibrato said:

When I started my undergrad course 4 years back - I had a lot of problems. I come from India and had very little equipment at home. I had a Yamaha PSR synth with 16 tracks to fill inside and record on a Floppy disc! So I found myself doing the same - Layer by layer.

Yamaha PSR's are quite handy! Here's something that Chris Bell did on a PSR 2000:

http://www.psrtutorial.com/mp3/AA/Artists.html

Scroll down and hit "America". Some of these guys are unreal!

[PaulR]

@skyy38 said:

http://www.psrtutorial.com/mp3/AA/Artists.html

Scroll down and hit "America". Some of these guys are unreal!

I'm sorry - but I've got to say that's fucking dreadful.

[Angelo Clematide]

@Drilian said:

Do you have some kind of mystical shorthand that helps you scratch out parts on paper really quickly?

Josh

It has to start and take place in the mind first. I don't even start to do anything except thinking, not inputing and no writing to paper, this until a clear idea and concept is conceived. I could also fool around with the music, improvise as some forumites mention above, all very nice but most often a waste of precious time.

For example, regisseurs and art directors at advertising agencies demand to hear a proposition next day. After the art director explained what he has in mind, and the best directors always know what they want, they just have their own language to explain it to me as composer, at this point I start my sonic fantasy on the subject, thinking thru the storyboard and concept until the idea arises. This workflow forced me to be time efficient. It is a fact that when the pressure is right, you will never fail to come up with satisfying music for the clientele. I also had to learn that I'm not inspired at all when folks with no budget call me.

About orchestration as such; I find it very animating for the my personal sonic fantasy, to play or listen to selected piano solo music from other composers, this of course only when my mind is free of production stress. The bald truth of naked piano music from other composers not only permits me to extend my harmonic language in a very comfortable way, but, and that more important, leaves enough free room to apply my in real time thought instrumentation to the piano music.

Recently I bought the complete piano solo collection of fabulous composer Zdeněk Fibich. As practice I still equip music who has never been orchestrated before with instruments. To protect my sonic personality, I stay away from listening to music who is orchestrated.

.

[gusttsilis]

 Compose a chord structure. As take 24 bars or an odd amount. Then lay down some changes you like as 

One bar of Aflat 7 with a sharp 11

Then in the next bar

B diminshed for a beat

C minor 11th for a beat

A7 flat 9 for a beat

Gminor major 7th for a beat

Then in bar three  

Gflat major 7th

Now improvise using these tensions and use whatever tempo or time signature you hear. This method will keep you honest from part to part. If your first line is being played by winds

and second line strings and the brass is the bottom, just stay within the chord stucture and the only problem you will have is where some tensions occur when improvising, but this can be altered after you get to a place where you like what you have created. Just use those two things attached to either side of your head.