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Arranging/Scoring rates
Last post Sat, Dec 01 2007 by PoppaJOL, 22 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Nov 23 2007 21:36
by jbm
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 1150
--- deleted ---
Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 15:12
by mathis
Joined on Sat, Feb 07 2004, Munich, Germany, Posts 1137

These kind of jobs are usually charged by bars or music minutes, aren't they? But anyway no idea of a representative rate either. 

Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 16:42
by fcw
Joined on Wed, May 11 2005, UK, Posts 153

jbm wrote:
...so I'm wondering what people charge?
 

I have to tell you that any discussion of rates or prices among people who could conceivably be in the same line of business is almost certainly illegal in the United States, and could result in serious charges being brought against both the participants and the witnesses to such discussions. 

This is not a joke; please read this for more information on why asking and answering such questions is a bad idea, particularly online, and why some mailing lists routinely stop any such discussions for the benefit of all the members of such lists.

Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 17:12
by jbm
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 1150
Hey Mathis,

I know commissions have always been a function of minutes * time [ edit ] ... duh... I mean, minutes * musicians - the Canadian Music Centre has a fee schedule for this purpose. I guess I'll just use that as a guide.


J.
Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 17:17
by jbm
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 1150
fcw wrote:
I have to tell you that any discussion of rates or prices among people who could conceivably be in the same line of business is almost certainly illegal in the United States, and could result in serious charges being brought against both the participants and the witnesses to such discussions. 


Wow, that's pretty severe! Thanks for the heads-up. I'll gladly delete the post... It's funny, because I know I've seen posts on this general subject here before, but I guess they just didn't refer to it the same way...(??)

Anyway, I'll delete my original post and see if the mods can delete the whole thread.

Thanks again.


J.
Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 17:27
by mathis
Joined on Sat, Feb 07 2004, Munich, Germany, Posts 1137
fcw wrote:

This is not a joke; please read this for more information on why asking and answering such questions is a bad idea, particularly online, and why some mailing lists routinely stop any such discussions for the benefit of all the members of such lists.

 

The author of this article mentions one of his first thought "I don't need to be bothered by U.S. law because I'm not in the U.S:" which was mine as well and there is no indication in the rest of the article that James as a Canadian and me as a German should be botheres by this law, or am I missing something?

Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 17:33
by jbm
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 1150
Well, I guess the real point is that there may very well be similar laws in Canada and Germany, so it's probably best to just not "go there", as they say! I really just thought of it as a pretty innocent question between colleagues, but I guess I understand why it could be a problem.

How are you doing, anyway, Mathis?


J.
Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 17:44
by fcw
Joined on Wed, May 11 2005, UK, Posts 153

I believe that point is actually addressed in the FAQ that the article refers to -- the HTML Writer's Guild, as hosts of the mailing list in question, would also become liable to prosecution, and they are in the US.  Effectively, therefore, there can be fallout for any party privy to, or enabling, such a conversation, even if the main participants are not under direct US jurisdiction. 

So abstaining from discussion of rates here also helps to avoid any actions being brought against VSL or their American business partners. 

A further problem is that this is the type of offence where you can be found guilty in your absence (it's a per se federal offence, which means that the facts alone are enough to convict, without any need to get into motives or context, and the burden of proof switches to the defendant to show that their actions were not actually a crime). If you, as defendant, are absent, the conviction stands against you anyway, and any subsequent attempts to enter the US, or even conduct business there from outside, could be seriously hampered for a long time.

I believe there are only four legitimate ways to get the information the original poster wanted: negotiate individually with your customers; adjust your prices, and see what effect it has on your business; use standard rates, based on surveys published by reputable trade or professional bodies; and read an independent survey of what typical rates are, conducted by a journalist not in the line of business, and published somewhere where customers are as likely to see it as suppliers.

Note that I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. Smile

Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 18:05
by jbm
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 1150
fcw wrote:
I believe there are only four legitimate ways to get the information the original poster wanted: negotiate individually with your customers; adjust your prices, and see what effect it has on your business; use standard rates, based on surveys published by reputable trade or professional bodies; and read an independent survey of what typical rates are, conducted by a journalist not in the line of business, and published somewhere where customers are as likely to see it as suppliers.


Well, though it is the Canadian League of Composers, not the Canadian Music Centre (as I mistakenly mentioned above), there is a publicly-available fee schedule for commissioning Canadian composers:

http://www.clc-lcc.ca/commissioning-rates.php

All of the funding bodies recognize this as an official guideline, though it's obviously not adhered to in all cases. However, this really is for commissioning new works, which I think most would agree is a much bigger job than arranging and copying.

Anyway, I've already requested this thread be deleted, so maybe the mods will do so...


We'll see.... J.
Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 18:13
by fcw
Joined on Wed, May 11 2005, UK, Posts 153

 Actually, I think it would be okay to leave it the way it is, since no actual discussion of rates took place, and this thread could serve as a warning to others. Smile

Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 18:27
by jbm
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 1150
I suppose that's true. Good point. I certainly had no idea I was a maniacal criminal before today! ;-)


J.
Posted on Sat, Nov 24 2007 23:40
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I would have thought that the right to freedom of speech negates all that cp*p. So the US is not the land of the free after all. Wink



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
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Posted on Sun, Nov 25 2007 01:20
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5493

I was thinking the same thing, somewhat more belligerently and obscenely... though I guess Big Brother is watching. 

Now is the time to join the Underground! 

Posted on Sun, Nov 25 2007 14:20
by fcw
Joined on Wed, May 11 2005, UK, Posts 153

DG wrote:
I would have thought that the right to freedom of speech negates all that cp*p
 

Slander and perjury are just two examples of types of speech that can get you into serious trouble because of the damage you can do to others with mere words. And good luck to anyone relying on the First Amendment as a defence against shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre.

The right to freedom of speech is a right that must be used wisely; it isn't a 'get out of jail free' card for whatever harm can be done with words alone.

Posted on Tue, Nov 27 2007 15:28
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
fcw wrote:

DG wrote:
I would have thought that the right to freedom of speech negates all that cp*p
 

Slander and perjury are just two examples of types of speech that can get you into serious trouble because of the damage you can do to others with mere words. And good luck to anyone relying on the First Amendment as a defence against shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded theatre.

The right to freedom of speech is a right that must be used wisely; it isn't a 'get out of jail free' card for whatever harm can be done with words alone.

Of course not, but nobody is going to tell me whether or not I can tell someone how much I charge.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Nov 27 2007 16:29
by fcw
Joined on Wed, May 11 2005, UK, Posts 153

DG wrote:
Of course not, but nobody is going to tell me whether or not I can tell someone how much I charge.
 

When that someone is a potential or actual competitor of yours, I think you'll find that the US Federal Trade Commission disagrees with you, and they are supported by over a century of legislation and court judgements.

In all seriousness, when people have gone to jail because they had an after-dinner conversation about commission rates, it shows that some kinds of speech are considered threats to the public trust in the US (hence, 'anti-trust'), and prosecuted accordingly.

Note that I'm neither defending nor advocating the situation, just
pointing out the potential danger, and showing you where you can find links to real legal information and advice.

That is all. Smile 

Posted on Tue, Nov 27 2007 20:38
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
fcw wrote:

DG wrote:
Of course not, but nobody is going to tell me whether or not I can tell someone how much I charge.
 

When that someone is a potential or actual competitor of yours, I think you'll find that the US Federal Trade Commission disagrees with you, and they are supported by over a century of legislation and court judgements.

I also don't care what they think either. Wink

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Wed, Nov 28 2007 05:04
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5493

I keep on agreeing with DG on this.  In fact, I basically don't believe it.  I can talk to anyone about anything that is non-violent or non-slanderous and can sue your ass off if you try to stop me.

Posted on Wed, Nov 28 2007 10:17
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
William wrote:

I keep on agreeing with DG on this.  In fact, I basically don't believe it.  I can talk to anyone about anything that is non-violent or non-slanderous and can sue your ass off if you try to stop me.

I guess that a lot of this would depend on whether or not you were a representative of a business. In my case that would mean that I'm working right now. Must remember to pay myself. Ooo, there go another two pennies. Drat, I mentioned money; off to jail I go. Stick out tongue

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Wed, Nov 28 2007 21:37
by clarkcontrol
Joined on Mon, May 03 2004, The Pagan Underground, Posts 315

 fcw says that we can legitimately obtain rates by obtaining "surveys published by reputable trade or professional bodies."

So, I would like to pronounce that THIS THREAD IS AN OFFICIAL SURVEY.

Also I would like to announce that I am a professional body. (160 lbs., 8% bodyfat)

The line starts here, ladies.

Clark

Clark
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