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  • Vienna Ensemble and ProTools (Windows)

    I just ran some tests with Vienna Ensemble on PC, in the hope that I would be able to use it with ProTools (via the FXPansion VST-RTAS wrapper).

    Everything appears to be fine - the wrapper identifies and wraps VE, ProTools sees the plugin and instantiates it correctly, the Ensemble application and server application launch as expected, everything is connected fine - basically all systems go.

    However, when I actually assign MIDI in ProTools to be routed to the Vienna Ensemble plugin, and assign instruments in Ensemble to receive MIDI from 'Plugin MIDI In', I cannot get MIDI into the Ensemble.  No activity at all.  I've checked everything I can think of, tried different channels etc.etc.  I can see MIDI being received on the correct channels in ProTools, but for some reason, it is not being routed to Vienna Ensemble.

    I'd really hoped this would work, as I've found running Vienna Instruments in a separate VST host and then routing audio into ProTools via Rewire to be quite cumbersome.  I guess for some reason the wrapping process isn't working totally correctly, which is causing MIDI transmission to fail.

    If anyone at VSL had any ideas, or comments, or had tested this at all, I'd be really grateful to hear any feedback.  If it's known to be

    a no-go, I'll go back to how I was working previously.

    Thanks for any help.

    Jules

    PS.  Are there any plans for a PC RTAS version of VE - clearly that would be the ultimate solution?


  • jules, i have to admit we don't have a PT system on windows at our hands here currently ... however we are in touch with fxpansion to improve (especially for windows) the chaining PT - fxpansion - VE.

     

    RTAS for PC is not ready for release yet, but also this *building site* is in the works with the help of digidesign.

     

    before you ask: no, unfortunately i cannot give you a detailed schedule.

    christian

     

    ps: mac users - can you see how far you are ahead? ;-)


    and remember: only a CRAY can run an endless loop in just three seconds.
  • Hi Christian

    Many thanks for the update.

    I'm extremely encouraged just to hear that an RTAS version of VE is in the works - that's great news.  Perhaps FXpansion may be able to tweak the wrapper in the meantime, otherwise I'll sit tight and keep using Bidule and Rewire.

    Thanks again for the information.

    Jules


  • Jules,

    FYI, I have just tried the FXpansion VST to RTAS V2.1 with Ensemble 3, running under Win XP.  Everything works properly, including:

    - Slave startup of expansion

    - Save/Restore of configurations on the host

    - Multiple (16) stereo audio tracks for each instance of Ensemble within Pro Tools

    - MIDI assignment

    - MIDI and Audio over Gigabit Ethernet

    This added to all of the other fantastic benefits of Ensemble 3!  For me this meains:

    - better memory utilization

    - much easier to configure and restore on-demand VI instances

    - going from 4 stereo audio channels (ADAT) to a potential of 52

    (Herb/Christian: I would still like to see a native RTAS!  And dare I say it - I would even be willing to pay more for it; and  I am very confident that I have never said that about another VSL product  :)  )

    --Dirk


  • Thanks Dirk - I'll check it out.

    Jules


  • Dirk - how do you bounce the output of your midi protools track onto an audio track?

    Thanks!


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    @hgraulich said:

    Dirk - how do you bounce the output of your midi protools track onto an audio track?

    Thanks!

    Yes, the documentation for Pro Tools is a bit light, and based on some pictures which are hard to see.  So here goes:

    There are 2 ways to use Ensemble with Pro Tools:

    1) Normal mode, using standard hardware:

    • Run Vienna Ensemble on the Slave Machine (can be on your host machine if you have enough memory and resources)
    • Configure the Master Buss in Ensemble to go to one of your hardware output channels.  You can add other Busses to use additional hardware outputs if you want.
    • In Ensemble configure the MIDI input ports channels to use for each VI instrument.
    • In Pro Tools, on your MIDI track, set the output hardware port and channels to match the MIDI inputs on VSL. Note: if you are trying to get this all set up the first time, I would recommend starting with hardware MIDI ports and real cables, even if they are going back to the same machine.  Later, you can try fancier methods, such as Maple, or network MIDI channels.  Also, don't try to use the Pro Tools hardware for MIDI inputs to VI - you will likely get loopbacks.  In fact, I suggest turning these off in Pro Tools. Use Pro Tools only for  MIDI output ports, until you are sure of what you are doing. Use hardware MIDI input ports, such as the one attached to your sound card for VI.
    • In Pro Tools, create a stereo Aux Track for each audio input (not an Audio Track, wihch has much more overhead). Here you do want to use the audio inputs on your Pro Tools hardware (MBox, Rack, 003, whatever).  Set the Aux Track inputs to correspond to your hardware inputs coming from the Ensemble outputs.  Note: again, in this mode use real audio hardware and cables, even if they are running on the same  machine.

    You should be up and running.

    However, the real power is using Ensemble in Master/Slave mode.  It wsa a bit tricky to get set up, but it is well worth it.

    2) Master/Slave Mode:

    • If you are running a PC Host, you will need to buy and run "VST to RTAS 2.1" from FXpansion. This will put Ensemble (and a ton of other things you probably don't want) into Pro Tools as a plug in.  Of course, you must have installed Ensemble first.
    • Make sure you have a high-speed (Gigabit) local LAN between machines.  A 4-port gigabit hub should only set you back about $100 (that makes it practically "free" in Euros!)
    • With Ensemble, they give you 3 licenses.  The docs say that there is not a license required for the Master.  However, when I tried to run the plugin on the Master, it said I needed a license, so I used one license on the Master and 2 on Slaves. (I plan to check out if I can move one of these licenses back to Slave, now that things are installed - but I haven't tried yet.  Moving licenses is easy with Syncrosoft.)
    • On your Slave machine, be sure that the Ensemble Server is running, and has a name.  There are good docs for this part.  Make sure you turn on "Advertise" so the Master machine can find it.
    • Create an "Instrument" Track in Pro Tools. Add an Input Filter Plugin on the Instrument Track, and pick Vienna Ensemble.
    • When the plugin pops up, press "Reconnect".  A new window pops up, where you should select the Slave machine, and then press "Connect".
    • After a few moments the Ensemble window will pop up on your slave machine. Add VI instruments as you need.
    • You will see that there is no real hardware choice for MIDI port - it will use the gigabit Ethernet.  You do need to set the MIDI channel for each instrument.
    • You will see that the audio outputs also can not reach the "real" audio on your machine.  That is ok - it will also use the gigabit Ehternet to send the audio.  The Master Buss will be set to 1/2.  You can create other busses, or set instruments directly to other stereo outputs (3/4, 5/6, etc.)
    • Back on Pro Tools, set your MIDI output ports to "Vienna Ensemble..."  You may have multiple Instrument Tracks with Multiple Ensembles, and they willl be numbered.
    • The Master Buss Audio 1/2 will be sent to the Instrument Track.
    • In order to get other Audio Tracks (3/4, 5/6, etc😉, do the following:  Create a stereo Aux Track. For audio Input, (which usually has just 2 top level choices: I/O and Buss) you will now see a new option: "Plugin".  You can select this menu item, and then any of the otther oudio channels, e.g. 3/4, 5/6.   (I have never seen this before - I have no other plugins which provide audio output anywhere other than the channel they are plugged in to.)
    • Finally, you do not need to save configuration on the plugin machine.  When you Save in Pro Tools, and later restore, the Slave will be restored as you left it!  I do tend to save some templates on the Slave, which I can use for fast setup of a new project.  But then I can modify them to suit an individual project and let Pro Tools keep those modifications.

    Hopefully this does the trick.  I probably left something out - and will be happy to help with additional questions.

    --Dirk


  • Hi,
    I'm trying to understand how to make this work (I'm new to Pro Tools and Vienna Ensemble).

    I have several midi tracks and one auxiliary tracks, on which I run the VE as a plug-in. I configure the outputs of my midi tracks to match the channels of the Vienna Ensemble. When I playback, I get feedback. I'm know I'm not doing things correctly, but I have a hard time fallowing what you describe (method 1).

    Could you provide just a few more details on where and how I must run VE and what I should do in Pro Tools?

    Thanks a lot,
    Vincent

  • Vincent,

    It sounds to me like you are mixing Method 1 and Method 2 as I described.

    In Method 1, you should not use VE as a plugin. Set up the Aux Track to accept audio only. 

    Run the Vienna Ensemble (not the VE Server), and make sure that the audio output goes to a sound card which is then plugged into your Pro Tools input.

    As far as feedback, I am guessing that you have Pro Tools and Ensemble running on the same machine, and are using MIDI-over-LAN (MOL) to  move the MIDI signals, in "pipe" mode.  This is fine, but it is very easy to accidently set this up to get feedback.  If this is the case:

    • in the menu of Pro Tools, go into the MIDI setup functions, especially MIDI Input Filters (the names might not be exactly right, since I am not in front of my Pro Tools Machine right now)
    • make sure that all of the MIDI-over-LAN "pipe" inputs are turned off. (unchecked).  In fact, I suggest that you turn off all off the MIDI inputs except those where you are really sending MIDI signals into Pro Tools (for example, from a keyboard).

    I this does not work, please send more information on your setup.  For example:

    • Ensemble and Pro Tools on the same machine?
    • MIDI configuration (hardware?  MOL?)
    • Sound card configuration
    • Complete setup of the Aux Track in question (inputs, outputs, filters, sends, etc.)

    Good luck,

    --Dirk


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    @dirk said:

    Vincent,

    It sounds to me like you are mixing Method 1 and Method 2 as I described.

    In Method 1, you should not use VE as a plugin. Set up the Aux Track to accept audio only. 

    Run the Vienna Ensemble (not the VE Server), and make sure that the audio output goes to a sound card which is then plugged into your Pro Tools input.

    As far as feedback, I am guessing that you have Pro Tools and Ensemble running on the same machine, and are using MIDI-over-LAN (MOL) to  move the MIDI signals, in "pipe" mode.  This is fine, but it is very easy to accidently set this up to get feedback.  If this is the case:

    • in the menu of Pro Tools, go into the MIDI setup functions, especially MIDI Input Filters (the names might not be exactly right, since I am not in front of my Pro Tools Machine right now)
    • make sure that all of the MIDI-over-LAN "pipe" inputs are turned off. (unchecked).  In fact, I suggest that you turn off all off the MIDI inputs except those where you are really sending MIDI signals into Pro Tools (for example, from a keyboard).

    I this does not work, please send more information on your setup.  For example:

    • Ensemble and Pro Tools on the same machine?
    • MIDI configuration (hardware?  MOL?)
    • Sound card configuration
    • Complete setup of the Aux Track in question (inputs, outputs, filters, sends, etc.)

    Good luck,

    --Dirk

    Thanks for your response.

    The only problem is that when I run VE outside Pro Tools (as you suggest), I cannot assign the midi outputs to it. It's like Pro Tools doesn't aknowledge VE unless I open it within Pro Tools.

    Yes, PT and VE are on the same machine (I have only the VS SE library). I'm not sure what is that MOL configuration you descbrive. I just run things they way they are set by default on my PC, haven't touched any options regarding that. I'll try to look in the Midi Outputs filter dialog box and see if it works out.

  • Vincent,

    Well I see where your problem is.  Here are some possibilities for you - but they all probably involve some money....

    A) MIDI option:

    You need to have a set of MIDI ports for PT to send to and for VE to receive from.  Your sound card may have enough ports. Otherwise you will need to either:

    • buy a hardware MIDI kit; lug one of the MIDI outs into one of the MIDI ins with a cable.
    • buy MIDI over LAN from musiclab (about 150 Euros) - a software solution (and my preference); configure it with at least one MIDI "pipe"

    Once you have MIDI in- and out- from your machine, follow Method 1 in my April 16 post.  Make sure you start Vienna Ensemble (not the Vienna Ensemble Service). Pro Tools will not "see" Vienna directly , but you should be able to send to the appropriate MIDI port out, and have Vienna "see" the signal on a MIDI port in.

    Remember to filter out MIDI inputs - per my earlier post - or you will get feedback.

    The Vienna Ensemble configuration will stay the same regardless of whatever session you bring up on Pro Tools.

    B) Vienna Ensemble Service option:

    You will need to buy "VST to RTAS 2.1" from FXpansion (about 86 Euros).  Run this, and it will convert the Vienna Ensemble Client to RTAS, and you can then load that as a plugin into PT (Instrument track).

    Follow the instructions for Method 2 in my April 16 post. You will not need to get a gigabit ethernet hub, since everything will be in the same computer (using "loopback").

    The Vienna Ensemble configuration will be saved with PT and will change for each new session you bring up on Pro Tools.

    If you use this option, watch out for using multiple Instrument tracks with multiple Vienna clients.  It works fine, but the Ensemble instances might not clear properly when you close a session.

    --Dirk


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    @dirk said:

    [...]

    B) Vienna Ensemble Service option:

    You will need to buy "VST to RTAS 2.1" from FXpansion (about 86 Euros).  Run this, and it will convert the Vienna Ensemble Client to RTAS, and you can then load that as a plugin into PT (Instrument track).

    Follow the instructions for Method 2 in my April 16 post. You will not need to get a gigabit ethernet hub, since everything will be in the same computer (using "loopback").

    The Vienna Ensemble configuration will be saved with PT and will change for each new session you bring up on Pro Tools.

    If you use this option, watch out for using multiple Instrument tracks with multiple Vienna clients.  It works fine, but the Ensemble instances might not clear properly when you close a session.

    --Dirk

    Hi Dirk, That's actually the way I was set already. I bought the FXpansion software and use the Vienna as a PT plug-in. And this is also what got me feedback. Now the weird thing is that it does so with Vienna Ensemble, but not with Vienna Instruments, or even with the Aria player from Finale (which works closest to Vienna Ensemble, in the sense that it is a multichannel plug-in). Why would Ensemble generate feedback and not the others?

  • Ok Vincent, sorry - it sounds like things are basically set up ok.  I will try to help.

    I suggest that you list out and send to the forum the all of the steps you go through to set up for a session. For example, something like this:

    - Start Vienna Ensemble Service

    - Start Pro Tools

    - Create a Session

    - Create an Instrument Track

    - Add an Insert Plugin to the Instrument Track of "Vienna Ensemble"

    - Select "Connect" in the plugin (does it connect properly and an Ensemble instance pop up?)

    - Set the Instrument Channel output to "Analog 1-2"

    - Set the Instrument Channel input to "no input"

    - Create a MIDI channel

    - Set the MIDI channel output to "Vienna Ensemble 1: Channel1"

    - In the Ensemble instance: insert an instrument, and set it to channel 1

    Also go to Pro Tools menu Setup -> MIDI -> Input Devices and list the contents.  Are any of them checked?  (If anything is checked, uncheck it - even if you think you need it.  It will be a valid test.)

    Are there any other MIDI dievices or sound card hardware (other than the Pro Tools hardware) on the machine?

    When you say feedback, I assume that you mean once you play a note, it keeps on playing many times?  (That is, it sounds like a MIDI problem, not an audio problem - right?)

    That's all I can think of to ask.  If you list all of this, I will try to see if there is a problem.

    --Dirk


  • Hey dirk,

    First, when I said feedback, it's maybe not the best word to describe what I hear. It's actually more distortion then feedback, like if the volume was peeking over its max. But it's clearly not the case when I look at any volume gauge, either in VE or on the auxiliary/instrument track in PT. Anyway even if I lower all the volumes, I still hear distortion.

    Ok, here are the steps I fallow when I lauch a new session.
    1. Launch Pro Tools
    2. Start new session
    3. Create midi tracks
    4. Create a stereo auxiliary or instrument track (one or the other produces the same result)
    5. Insert VE as a multichannel plug-in on the aux/instrument track.
    6. Vienna server launches inside PT as a RTAS and the VE window opens itself
    7. I assign the midi tracks to different channel in VE and load the instruments accordingly in VE
    I haven't taken a look yet at the Midi filters, but I will as soon as I can and report you what options were checked.

  • Hi again,

    I tried again today and for some mysterious reasons, it worked just fine, wheter or not I check anything in the Input device menu. I think the problem came from the fact that I tried to use two instruments plug-ins on the same Aux or Instrument track (which is kind of dumm, come to think of it!).

    Anyway, it's all working fine now. Thanks a lot for your help.
    Vincent

  • Vincent,

    Glad you are up and running!

    Yes, it is not a good idea to use more than one instrument plug-in per track.  Also, while many of the instrument plug-ins work on Aux tracks, I have found that Instrument tracks do a better job of "cleaning up" when you switch to a new session.

    --Dirk


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    @dirk said:

    Vincent,

    Glad you are up and running!

    Yes, it is not a good idea to use more than one instrument plug-in per track.  Also, while many of the instrument plug-ins work on Aux tracks, I have found that Instrument tracks do a better job of "cleaning up" when you switch to a new session.

    --Dirk

    Interesting... indeed when I want to close sessions involving many instruments, PT regularly crashes. I should try with Instrument tracks and see if it makes a difference.

    Thanks again!

    Vincent


  • OK so reading thru these posts, & I am new to Vienna buy a couple days, I see that you don't necessarily have to be hooked to a network to use VE, but when I insert it I keep getting just the window that says "Not Connected"... Again, I'm not trying to do the network thing; I want to be able to use it in Pro Tools; I can pull it up as a standalone with no problem @ all but as a plug in pro tools, it just says "STATUS" not connected? I'm normally pretty fast @ figuring things out but this 1 has me by the nads...

  • KEYBEETSSS,

    Happy to try to help, but there are too many "it's" in your post.  Please give us a better clue as to what is happening.  For example:

    - you are running Pro Tools on Windows?

    - you are trying to use Vienna Ensemble 3.0?

    - you have used FXpansion's VST to RTAS tool on the Vienna Client?  And it is this client that you are trying to use as a plugin in PT?

    - do you already have the Vienna Ensemble Server (3.0) running?  I assume from your post that this is on the same machine as PT?

    - when you bring up the Vienna Client window as a PT plugin, and then press "connect" do you get a window with the IP address of your machine?

    Send us this info, and anything else that might be relevant, and we will try to help.

    --Dirk