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Beat Kaufmann Miserere (How useful are the Soprano's?)
Last post Wed, Aug 26 2009 by michael_12374, 17 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Dec 17 2007 09:08
by CommanderFunk_28576
Joined on Sat, Jun 16 2007, Posts 18

Hey guys,

So I really want to purchase the sopranos
after hearing the demos (The Miserere especially). I have read that the
legato is virtually useless without a lot of tweaking. Is this still the case? I'd really like these to be 'playable' as much as possible.

Beat,
I see you posted a zip file containing elements of how this was done
along with a .gif file. Do these still exist? I would love to see the
process involved so that I could determine how useful Soprano's could be for me.

Thanks again boys!

Posted on Mon, Dec 17 2007 11:15
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1159
Hey there,

I bought the Soprano Choir and I have to say that they are amazing. The Legato's are not something I'd use in every situation .. unlike with the first edition VSL where all I used was the legato. But I find that the samples are really nice .. and with a good reverb sound totally realistic. ....... I'm sure Beat would .. and will comment that there's no shame in using the different articulations .. like sustains .. and legatos in any piece that you'd write. ......... More and more with the VI's I find myself using Articulations that I never bothered to use on the VSL First Edition. And with Velocity xfade the choirs are a pure winner. ............... I'm not sure I agree that the legato needs tweaking .. they sound like portamento but as I said .. I have found no difficulty in using Sustains mainly .. and interjecting legatos where needed.
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Mon, Dec 17 2007 11:42
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

The problem with the legato is that it is far too bumpy to be able to play in real time. When used as a fast legato it works very well, but for slower moving legato it is a bit disappointing. However, the sustains are good, and I have used these on a few projects already.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Dec 17 2007 17:56
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1654

 'Bumpy' is a good word.   I have found on the slower passages it sounds like someone 'goosed' the sopranos right as they are chaning notesSad

I am sure the VSL team will iron out this though. 

I use the sustains all the time and play around with the 'release slider' in VI.  Works well in many applications.  The one thing is that is very strong (like the rest of VSL) is the sopranos take well to EQ and IR's.

Rob 

what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Mon, Dec 17 2007 18:01
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Rob Elliott wrote:

 I have found on the slower passages it sounds like someone 'goosed' the sopranos right as they are changing notesSad

Rob 

That was always me at college. Surprise


DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2007 01:24
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1738
CommanderFunk_28576 wrote:

Hey guys,

Beat,
I see you posted a zip file containing elements of how this was done
along with a .gif file. Do these still exist? I would love to see the
process involved so that I could determine how useful Soprano's could be for me.

Thanks again boys!

 

- My dear friends above didn't advertise the soprano choir... Big Smile.

- You always have to fiddle around with samples...even if you use others than the sopranos Smile

- Yes, they still exist - these gif-files. But it is 02:00 here in Switzerland so I have to go to bed now Sleep.


I will upload the zip file tomorrow - with a link here.

Further I will play some soprano legato phrases for you - without any effects - tomorrow. So be a little patient...

Soon Sleep

Beat   

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2007 02:19
by CommanderFunk_28576
Joined on Sat, Jun 16 2007, Posts 18

 As always I really can't thank the normal players enough.

I truly appreciate the help and input from all of you. I'll wait for the .zip file and go from there.

Beat, please take your time and only post when convenient. After all this is a huge favor Embarrassed

Hetoreyn, Just heard you address this question in your podcast. Wonderful wonderful SurpriseBig Smile 

I hope VSL pays you *nudge* *nudge*

Thanks! 

P.S. Loved the competition results! 

Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2007 09:34
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1738

Hello Here are the promised files

www.beat-kaufmann.com/BK_Allegri_Miserere_Documents.zip

www.beat-kaufmann.com/choir1.mp3 > a typical choir warmup phrase (level 1 mf)

www.beat-kaufmann.com/choir2.mp3 > a typical choir warmup phrase (level 2 f)

www.beat-kaufmann.com/choir3.mp3 > Miserere: Only the two sopranos (reverb = RoomWorks Cubase)

Two more files where I used the Sopranos:

BWV_11_Choral > Tenors and Basses > Hypersonic, Steinberg

Weihnachtsfriede >  PlayAlong without! the Leading Voice > Sopranos in the beginnin/ in the middl/ at the (sweet) end.

Have fun

Beat

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2007 13:00
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1994
DG wrote:

The problem with the legato is that it is far too bumpy to be able to play in real time. When used as a fast legato it works very well, but for slower moving legato it is a bit disappointing. However, the sustains are good, and I have used these on a few projects already.

 

DG




They absolutely need to come up with a "lighter legato" in the future, something less portamento, but when used sparingly it's still unique among all vocal samples.
Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2007 13:12
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1654

 Good idea Guy.  I am trying to 'fake' this lighter legato now (using sop sustain samples and fiddling with release times, controller faders, etc. - but it just takes too much time and results are varying.

Rob 

what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2007 13:40
by Guy Bacos
Joined on Sun, Jan 16 2005, Quebec, Canada, Posts 1994
I sympathize, when using the leg perf I have to do a lot of fader "velocity" adjustments between the notes especially if the passage is more gentle, and that as well is time consuming and more or less satisfactory.
Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2007 14:46
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

I found that the easiest way to "fix" this was to mixdown to audio and then draw the automation directly on the wave form. Trying to work in MIDI was useless, as I couldn't see exactly where the bumps were, which resulted in a lot of re-editing the velocity xFade information.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Dec 18 2007 14:51
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1738

Guy wrote:
I sympathize, when using the leg perf I have to do a lot of fader "velocity" adjustments between the notes especially if the passage is more gentle, and that as well is time consuming and more or less satisfactory.
 

Yes, I agree

Allegri-Project

Lots of Track-Automation orders - 1/2 of them are diminuendos (not in the library)

But I think the library is just what it is: a preview.

I guess that Herb and his stuff fiddle around as well to get a product which shows the top - as we are used to get it from VSL.

To day it is still impossible to create choir or solo singers with samples in my eyes.

Consider, we are expecting singers who can speak English, German, Japanese, and all these languages while singing a melody.

Sometimes
vocals change from a to o in a legato-section but in the meantime we
expect not to long legato-times, not to short legatos, a sad legato, a
crescendo in the legato while changing from i to the Norwegian a in the meantime...

Would you like to produce a Singer-Library?  

I think that we still need to wait. Perhaps we can speak in a mic one day and - similar to the good old Vocoders - a computer will fit basic human samples to our voice-orders in a very natural way...


But we are still in 2007. So the only decission we have to do:

Shall I use current choir libraries? yes or no? If yes... All libraries are as they are today: A starting point.

Beat 

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Wed, Aug 26 2009 11:42
by michael_12374
Joined on Wed, Feb 09 2005, Posts 26

Hey guys,

I'm thinking of getting the Sopranos.

Has that bumpiness issue been resolved in the latest updates or is it still a problem?

Gigabyte Mainboard, Intel P35 Chipset
Intel Core2Quad Q9300
Gigabit LAN
ATI HD 3470
Windows XP 64
Cubase 4
Posted on Wed, Aug 26 2009 13:18
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1654

Still a problem.  "someday" this library may be released but for now I have left it for other options.

what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Wed, Aug 26 2009 15:46
by William
Joined on Sun, Nov 24 2002, USA, Posts 5639

I agree on that problem with the legato.  It is the result of the dissected transitions being too loud for the sustain target notes.  I have been layering the uu sustains with the ah legatos, or vice versa, and adjusting the levels within the pairs, though it is obviously not the best solution.  The reason this problem has not been fixed is probably that the entire choir library is going to be released sometime and they will just do it then.  It is amusing however, that even with this problem - the only really noticeable one in all the VSL library - they are still the best sampled sopranos available.

Posted on Wed, Aug 26 2009 16:06
by michael_12374
Joined on Wed, Feb 09 2005, Posts 26

Thanks for clarifying!

Gigabyte Mainboard, Intel P35 Chipset
Intel Core2Quad Q9300
Gigabit LAN
ATI HD 3470
Windows XP 64
Cubase 4
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