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Last post Wed, Feb 13 2008 by icgant_7585, 36 replies.
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Posted on Mon, Feb 11 2008 19:51
by edhendersonmusic
Joined on Sat, Aug 25 2007, Vancouver BC, Canada, Posts 21

I can't find the advantage to using VE with Logic and have found many drawbacks - here are the issues that I am coming up against:

1 - in VE I can't access any of the effects listed (I opened the EQ moved all the buttons up and down together plus and minus 20 db and absolutely no change)

2 - all the effects listed are apple and none of the Logic inserts are available - except of course on the stereo output in logic but then that only does the entire ensemble and not individual instruments

3 - sounds loaded into VE: the tymps, trombones, orchestral drums that I loaded all play back at one velocity level - using events list to vary a note from 127 to 1 they all sound the same

Why use VE?  Comparing 15 tracks in one VE to the same 15 tracks loaded into Logic (on separate, individualy editable and effectable tracks) do  save RAM?  Why use it?

Ed 

edhendersonmusic
Posted on Mon, Feb 11 2008 21:50
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

OK, I think you are missing the point on some of this.

  1. VE has 16 stereo outputs per instance, so why are you only using one?
  2. VE gives you an extra 3GB or so, separate from either Logic's RAM or VI's RAM, which is routed into Logic without needing 3rd party audio loopbacks.
  3. You have probably got velocity xFade on if everything plays back at one velocity level. I'm not a Logic user, so I can't be sure what you've done, but this is certainly user error. Nothing wrong with VE on this.
  4. One of the best reasons for you to use VE is that you can pan instruments properly; something which I'm told that Logic does quite badly, even with the Direction Mixer (?) plug.

I don't want to be callous, but you need to look further into how to use the software before you dismiss it.


DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Feb 11 2008 22:29
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1159
I must admit I've yet to get the VE to do anything useful too. Although I love the idea of it, and have toyed with it .. I have no idea how to one bounces audio from a VE instance that is in Standalone mode. Surely the 16 Outputs are only possible if you have 16 outputs on your soundcard .. or audio interface ... admittably I'm rather fuzzy on how this works.

.

Also the idea of running the VE within Logic doesn't appeal because I want to be able to take advantage of the full 8 gig of RAM in my machine. Or have it misunderstood about running VE within Logic .. does the none standalone version address RAM outside of Logic?

.

VE remains a mystery to me. The one time I tried to use all the instruments I have within 4 standalone instances .. my Quad G5 totally failed to playback a song .. that easily played back the same instruments within logic. So I'm not sure that the concept of VE is really clear .. at least not to me .. and from other posts I'd say some other users are having similar problems in understanding.

.

It would be good to see a tutorial vid demonstrating how one can use the VE .. in and out of logic, or whichever DAW. Myself I wish to use one big instance of VE .. (Obviously in 64 bit mode), as standalone .. which I can then route into logic and have all the audio going into logic without a hitch.

.

Please someone .. saves us all from the confusion. I know VE has potential .. but without understanding more about it .. it's kinda lost on me. :D
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Mon, Feb 11 2008 22:59
by edhendersonmusic
Joined on Sat, Aug 25 2007, Vancouver BC, Canada, Posts 21
Dear DG,

Thanks for the reply - surely I am missing something and I mean no offense to you or anyone at VI. Just having problems getting my writing done.
1) perhaps I am doing this incorrectly but I have been using one stereo out in Logic and mixing everything pre the output. I am using MOTU 828 MK2 (with Black Lion Audio rebuilt audio) and it has 8 outs so I could route those through my mixer to monitor
2) I did not know that - thanks
3) I am using velocity xFades and they are very effective - I think they were just not getting re-set on each playback - solvable with a control instruction
4) VE panning is nice indeed though I've not had problems with Logic's panning

It would be great to have a video presentation on how to setup and best utilize VE - specific to Logic would be good,
Thanks,
Ed

edhendersonmusic
Posted on Mon, Feb 11 2008 23:01
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

So yet another person hasn't read the documentation.Wink


Look, when you run VE within Logic, it uses it's own memory allocation (and so does VI), so you won't get any less RAM (practically speaking) than running one standalone. Because it's a plugin, you should be able to get 16 stereo outs from it, no matter what your soundcard has.


Therefore, by a combination of VI and VE plugins, you should be able to use 5-6Gb RAM without touching logic's own RAM allocation.


When Apple has truly caught up to the 64bit game then you will be able to run numerous plug instances, even if Logic is still 32bit. Until then you have to use a mixture of methods.


DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Mon, Feb 11 2008 23:04
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
edhendersonmusic wrote:
Dear DG, Thanks for the reply - surely I am missing something and I mean no offense to you or anyone at VI. Just having problems getting my writing done. 1) perhaps I am doing this incorrectly but I have been using one stereo out in Logic and mixing everything pre the output.

It's not that it's incorrect, but if you were using all the available outputs from the plugin instance, you could use all sorts of EQ/effects, and even use some automation, whereas this does not work within the VE environment.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 00:14
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1159
DG wrote:

So yet another person hasn't read the documentation.Wink

 

DG


Well .. I did try .. but for me it didn't read too well. And I found it unclear as to what it offered in terms of system usage. Now you say it can address it's own RAM I'll give it a try within Logic. As for the 16 Outputs ... I'm not seeing that .. only the HW 1 & 2 Out (Since I only have the stereo output). Unless you mean the Buss outputs .. or just the fact that you can have 16 instruments outputting. But I still don't know how this is all tied together in Logic.

.

The Manual really does not tell you in detail how to setup and use within Logic. I take it that one can fill Logics RAM with VI instances upto around 4 gig .. and then on top of that use VE inside logic to have an extra 3 gig. You see how confusing this all is. One has to seek clarification all the damned time or risk being cross eyed for a week trying to figure it out.

.

Well I ain't worried .. cos I know I'm not the only one who's scratching my head trying to work it all out :P
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
Logic ProX
Notion SLE

VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 00:39
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385
I have it working really well. I have a VE inside DP with 16 outputs, this holds all my percussion. Then I have 2 VE's running outside of DP, one running my string section and the other running Piano, Celeste and Choir. I have soundflower set up so all these instruments use a stereo channel each and that's another 16 channels.



Then I have all these coming into DP through aux tracks and I can mix and route them what ever way I want. The only dissappointing thing is that I cannot have brass and woodwind currently running outside of DP, as there are not ebough channels in soundflower to route them back in. So I can't wait until VE3 comes out then I can have 5 VEs outside of DP, one for each section. All routed into aux tracks in DP where I can process them. Awesome!!!!
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 01:42
by edhendersonmusic
Joined on Sat, Aug 25 2007, Vancouver BC, Canada, Posts 21
Hello DG,

You are quite wrong to admonish me for not reading the documentation - I did read it. Many programs I can get away with following my nose but not with Vienna.

The documentation is not clear where the outputs end up (if I am trying to work within my recording program - Logic) - they don't open up in Logic - perhaps I misunderstand the routing and if that is the case, please let me know,

Can't wait for 64 bit.

Thanks for explaining the RAM allocations,

All the best, Ed
edhendersonmusic
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 01:50
by edhendersonmusic
Joined on Sat, Aug 25 2007, Vancouver BC, Canada, Posts 21
Dear Simsy,

That sounds great - I hope I can figure out how to do that with Logic. Just looked on the soundflower website - am wondering where in VE you send to Logic? I'll load SF and see if I can figure it out but any help you can offer will be greatly appreciated, thanks, Ed
edhendersonmusic
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 02:05
by icgant_7585
Joined on Sat, Jul 31 2004, Posts 29
I use Logic and VE. If you use VE for panning, then route them to aux channels you can dsp them with logic effects. I do this and it works really well. Another advantage of VE in Logic is that you can quickly edit the Instruments within VE.ie move from one to the other quicker.
I'm afraid some people get quite up themselves when replying to questions, Go with it ask away, and someone will help eventually with with manners.
Goodluck

Cheers Ian
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 02:17
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385
No probs, after installing soundflower here is what you should do.


1) Open Audio Midi setup in Applications>Utlities
2) Click the Audio Tab. Now go to the audio menu item and click on Aggregate Device option
3) You need to create a new aggregate device so click the plus sign and name it - myAggDevice
4) Now in the list below, first select your audio device (in my case my apogee) and click the use checkbox and then select soundflower and select it's use checkbox


Thats the audio setup!

Now to setup the midi

1) Click on the midi tab in the Audio Midi setup
2) Double click on IAC Driver object
3) In the properties box add two new ports, call them Strings and Brass etc
4) Make sure the device is online and hit apply.

Now setup Vienna Ensemble
1) Open VE
2) Open Preferences and select the aggregate device under the audio tab
3) Select the IAC ports you created under the midi tab
4) Now create your vienna instruments, select the IAC driver under port dropdown say Strings and a midi channel. At the bottom of the mixer channel select the output channel.

This is were it gets a bit tricky. The first channels in your aggregate device relate to your audio device, the rest to soundflower. So for example you have a two channel audio device then outputs 1-2 will be your audio device, outputs 3-18 will be soundflower. So inside VE route your outputs of your instruments to the soundflower channels not your audio device.


Finally, set up logic!!

1) Open logic and set your audio device to be the aggregate device.
2) Set your main output channel to outputs 1-2 etc for your audio device
3) Create a new external instrument, set its output to one of the IAC's you created for example strings.
4) Then as you normally do, use the option create with next midi channel, these midi instruments will now be sending to the external VE

*Warning - in the enviroment you must not use the SUM option in your physical Input device as it will cause a loop. Therefore go to you clicks and ports layer and cable from your keyboard only to the sequencer input


5) To get the audio back in, simply create a aux track and set it's input to match the channel numbers that you had set in the VE. And set it's output to the master output channel.


You should now be able to send midi out of Logic to the VE's running and rout the audio back into Logic to process.



Hope this helps!!!
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 02:41
by edhendersonmusic
Joined on Sat, Aug 25 2007, Vancouver BC, Canada, Posts 21
Thanks - there are a couple of solutions to my questions and I tried yours first because it looks pretty simple.

I think there must be something wrong with the way that I setup VE in the first place. I am working on a track where I made my first VE setup sheet with 3 layers of orchestral percussion, trumpets, horns, trombones, tuba (and strings that I am not using yet) They all are all called instrument 1 in Logic and just work on different midi channels.

I was using aux 1 for a reverb send. When I add aux two it is added to every instance of VE and all at the same level (just like it is with aux 1) so these tracks are still coming back as a single ensemble where I cannot edit individual tracks. Sounds like I have built this incorrectly,

Any other ideas? Thanks, Ed
edhendersonmusic
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 03:12
by icgant_7585
Joined on Sat, Jul 31 2004, Posts 29
I think I might have a solution. Set up VE as a multi- instrument as shown in manual. IE: like ultrabeat. When you go into VE and put your different vi 's to different ouputs, go back to mixer in Logic and click on the + sign it adds another aux track with the vi instance in it. Now you can use the DSP of logic to use on your instrument, independently.

Cheers Ian
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 03:19
by icgant_7585
Joined on Sat, Jul 31 2004, Posts 29
I found this also to be useful...........
http://community.vsl.co....17411/124464.aspx#124464

"In Logic's environment, create a new multi-instrument - - this will have 16 channels. Wire the multi-instrument to Instrument 1 on the MIxer page of the Environment. (To move an object from one layer of the Environment to another, select the object, hold down the option key while selecting the layer of the Environment to which you wish to move the object.) Name the Multi-Instrument something like VE 1. After you have done this, load a multi-channel instance of VE into Instrument 1. Go to the arrange page. You will find that, when you right-click or contol-click a track, you can reassign it to VE 1, channels 1 - 16). Load the instruments into VE as you desire.

IMPORTANT NOTE: If you are using what is, at present, the most current OSX version of VE - - dated 2007-11-08 - - DO NOT ATTEMPT INSTANTIATION OF MORE THAN ONE INSTANCE OF VE. ((This will still give you 16 channels to work with.) If you instantiate more than one instance of VE, it will work as long as the file is open, but once you've saved and closed the file, attempting to open it again will result in a crash. In other words you will not be able to re-open the file!

It is important to remember that, in Logic, MIDI Volume (CC7) changes will affect all 16 channels of a multi-instrument simultaneously. Since this is rarely desirable, use MIDI Expression (CC11) to affect changes in level for each channel - MIDI Expression settings can function independently on all 16 channels."
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 05:55
by edhendersonmusic
Joined on Sat, Aug 25 2007, Vancouver BC, Canada, Posts 21
Well this did not work for me. In fact I now can't get any sounds out of Logic or VE. Environment issues likely.

in the first section you said 4) Now in the list below, first select your audio device (in my case my apogee) and click the use checkbox and then select soundflower and select it's use checkbox (I GET MY AGGREGATE FOR DEFAULT INPUT AND OUTPUT - SYSTEM OUTPUT IS SOUNDFLOWER)

ABOUT VE YOU SAID: Now setup Vienna Ensemble
1) Open VE
2) Open Preferences and select the aggregate device under the audio tab
3) Select the IAC ports you created under the midi tab
4) Now create your vienna instruments, select the IAC driver under port dropdown say Strings and a midi channel. At the bottom of the mixer channel select the output channel.
(ALL I GET IS THE SAME BUS AND PAIRED OUTPUTS 1&2, 3&4 ETC AND NOT THE NEW NAMED CHANNELS

ABOUT LOGIC YOU SAID:
1) Open logic and set your audio device to be the aggregate device. OK
2) Set your main output channel to outputs 1-2 etc for your audio device OK
3) Create a new external instrument, set its output to one of the IAC's you created for example strings. (IS THIS IN THE ENVIRONMENT WINDOW? I CAN SEE THE NAMES LISTED IN PHYSICAL INPUT, CREATED A NEW INSTRUMENT BUT STILL NO SOUND
4) Then as you normally do, use the option create with next midi channel, these midi instruments will now be sending to the external VE (SORRY- NO CAN DO)

I can see midi happening from my keyboard through the 828, this does not make it to the VE.

I do appreciate you taking such time to explain this to me. I wish it would work as simply as you state it. Is there something that I am doing wrong? Thanks, Ed



edhendersonmusic
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 08:00
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
edhendersonmusic wrote:
Hello DG, You are quite wrong to admonish me for not reading the documentation - I did read it. Many programs I can get away with following my nose but not with Vienna. The documentation is not clear where the outputs end up (if I am trying to work within my recording program - Logic) - they don't open up in Logic - perhaps I misunderstand the routing and if that is the case, please let me know, Can't wait for 64 bit. Thanks for explaining the RAM allocations, All the best, Ed

It was not meant as any sort of admonishment, more of a joke, but in any case I think that your problems are Logic related, rather than VE.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 08:02
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
icgant_7585 wrote:
I'm afraid some people get quite up themselves when replying to questions, Go with it ask away, and someone will help eventually with with manners. Goodluck Cheers Ian

I guess that'll be me then. It certainly isn't you, with your enormous post count over 4 years.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 10:32
by PaulR
Joined on Mon, Dec 22 2003, England, Posts 2371

Oh deary deary me Daryl - have you been 'admonishing' people. :))))))))))))))



Like I said in an earlier post somewhere - this stuff is too technical for a lot of people and VSL NEEDS to come out with a training video toute suite.
Posted on Tue, Feb 12 2008 10:37
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
PaulR wrote:
Oh deary deary me Daryl - have you been 'admonishing' people. :))))))))))))))

Geeked


Paul, I don't really see how using a plugin within Logic can be too taxing, but then again I've never tried it. It is all so easy in Cubase and Nuendo, so maybe I've been spoilt by this.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
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