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Will Altiverb become obsolete with MIR?
Last post Thu, Feb 12 2009 by Dietz, 41 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Mar 12 2008 14:09
by mon_art
Joined on Sat, Oct 23 2004, Switzerland, Posts 65

As the title says, what do you think?

I only use convolution reverb for "orchestral" music/instruments, and all of them are from VSL. For other sources (voice/drums/...), I find that "algorithm" reverb are better suited and use that. So I wonder if AV will go to sleep when MIR (and its complete integration onto VE) is finally released? Or will you stick to AV, for the sake of costs and already made templates?

Just wondering aloud... 

Posted on Wed, Mar 12 2008 18:57
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7291
It's no secret that I'm a big fan of AltiVerb, and in fact AudioEase has programmed the convolution core used within the MIR in its current state. With the highly specific goals of our upcoming MIR, there will be no reason to get rid of AltiVerb (although you may find yourself to use it less for orchestral tasks).


HTH,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Tags: Altiverb MIR
Posted on Wed, Mar 12 2008 20:14
by hetoreyn
Joined on Sat, Nov 27 2004, Vancouver, British Columbia, Posts 1157
AV is an awesome tool for Sound design .. so even if MIR would be used for only Symphonic purposes .. and be much better than AV .. I still reckon AV has it's place. Hope you guys have a beta test version of MIR soon .. I am Sooooo dying to see it. Mind you .. so is everyone else I suppose :P
Hetoreyn
http://www.hetoreyn.com

Mac Pro 2013 - 3.5 ghz, 32 Gig RAM (Master)
27 inch iMac i5 2.7 Ghz 16 Gig RAM (Slave)


Pro-Tools 12 (Native), Mbox Pro 3
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VI Pro, VE Pro, MIR, Vienna Suite, Omnisphere, Slate Digital Plugs.
Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2008 00:05
by jbm
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 1150
Don't forget, also, that with the need for a dedicated computer, not to mention the potential price of the MIR software, Altiverb will be a considerably more economical choice. I somehow can't imagine I'll be able to afford MIR when it comes out... will, no doubt, be saving my pennies for that one! ;-)


J.
Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2008 07:43
by fritzflotow
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 320

 As fa, as I know there are no news on using VE3 for other plugins than VSL. Personally, I would be willing to pay more for it, if you could use it with all VSTIs.

What about mir, Dietz? Since it is going to be quite expensive, souldn't it be possible to route all kinds of audio data to it? Like some ethno instrument you want to place in the same room?

Fritz. 

Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2008 08:59
by mon_art
Joined on Sat, Oct 23 2004, Switzerland, Posts 65

If AV requires a dedicated PC, then it's out of the question for me. I would rather spend my pennies on a Bricasti! However, I don't care for real-time rendering: I always work without reverb during mock-ups, and add it at the end - easier to hear the articulations this way. Imagine you find a good setup with MIR, you know it sounds good because you tested it on exports, then you wouldn't need a dedicated PC.

I agree with Fritz: paying more for MIR and use it for any instruments! Using MIR with VSL and then trying to find a corresponding patch with Altiverb for other non-VSL VST's seems awkward! Specially if the heart of MIR comes from AudioEase technology.

(I wonder how much it will costs, with all these years in development, the relative small number of end users with only VSL VI's... but like always, VSL will come with an elegant answer Cool)

Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2008 12:16
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

Dietz has previously said that MIR will not be VSL exclusive; just that you won't get all the advantages with other samples.

DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2008 12:31
by mon_art
Joined on Sat, Oct 23 2004, Switzerland, Posts 65

If that's the case, it's fantastic! What does "won't get all the advantages" mean? Mhh... But then the initial question remains: will Altiverb become obsolete with the release of MIR? The IR format probably won't be compatible between both apps, and AV's list of IR's is long and exhaustive. So those using it for sound design or post-pro will certainly still use it. As for the others?

The MusikMesse (2008) would be a wonderful time to announce the release of VE3 and MIR... 

Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2008 12:51
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
mon_art wrote:

If that's the case, it's fantastic! What does "won't get all the advantages" mean? Mhh... But then the initial question remains: will Altiverb become obsolete with the release of MIR? The IR format probably won't be compatible between both apps, and AV's list of IR's is long and exhaustive. So those using it for sound design or post-pro will certainly still use it. As for the others?

The MusikMesse (2008) would be a wonderful time to announce the release of VE3 and MIR... 

Obviously Dietz is the best person to answer this, but I think I remember him saying that VI would send some sort of Meta data to MIR, which obviously won't be available with other samples.


I think that AV will still be very useful for sound design, and I have yet to hear anything from MIR, so I'm not even thinking about it ATM.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Thu, Mar 13 2008 13:26
by fritzflotow
Joined on Mon, Apr 23 2007, Posts 320

 Great! That makes everything quite clear: In case you make big use of sounddesign, unusual rooms etc. you will still take a great advantage of altiverb, even if you intend to buy mir. 

If you use it only for some orchestra hall simulations like sidney opera hall, you won't need AV in addition to mir.

That information is indeed important! It will simply be a consideration of budget: MIR price plus one state of the art PC... could be expensive.

Fritz. 

Posted on Fri, Mar 14 2008 21:24
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385
Hey Dietz, I don't suppose you could let us hear something that was rendered with MIR, just to give us a little taste?
Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2008 00:48
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7291
mon_art wrote:
The MusikMesse (2008) would be a wonderful time to announce the release of VE3 and MIR... 

I just came back from Frankfurt, where I gave a highly inoffical preview of an especially downscaled "realtime-only" version (using about 20% or the possible resolution) of the current MIR-engine to a handfull of people. Without sounding too high-handed I'm in the lucky position to tell you thet the reactions were overwhelming  :-) We didn't make an announcement as this is not the final product, but we decided that it's about time to show that MIR is not vapor-ware (quite on the contrary). ... more good news coming within the next few months or so, and I hope you all will like what we have to tell you then.

DG wrote:
VI would send some sort of Meta data to MIR, which obviously won't be available with other samples.

This is correct. To use the full potential of the MIR-concept, the engine has to know some important aspects of the incoming signals. But in addition to these "full featured" inputs, there will be an handful of auxiliary inputs with the possibilty to integrate a stereo-submix and soloists from _any_ source, using the MIR more or less as a conventional sampling-reverb.

simsy wrote:
Hey Dietz, I don't suppose you could let us hear something that was rendered with MIR, just to give us a little taste?

Right now I have no new demos at hand which I would consider to be representative. I still have to link you to the early "proof-of-concept"-mixes available in our demo-zone, namely the complete "Pictures at an Exhibition": -> http://vsl.co.at/en/67/3920/4944.vsl

... time to get some sleep now ... <zzzzzz>

/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Tags: MIR
Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2008 03:49
by Simsy
Joined on Mon, May 21 2007, Posts 385
Thanks Dietz, I do have one final question. In all the MIR stuff it says that it will have different concert hall IR's, but will you also be releasing any scoring stage IR's?

If you are, can I suggest two scoring stage IR's that I would love to have

1) Air Lyndhurst
2) Abbey Road.



Thanks!!
Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2008 08:48
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608
Simsy wrote:

I don't know what the Air policy is, but Abbey road won't allow sampling of the space for convolution reverb purposes.


DG

Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
48GB RAM
Windows 7 (x64)Pro
RME Multiface II
Intensity
ATI HD5400 series graphics card
Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2008 09:48
by mon_art
Joined on Sat, Oct 23 2004, Switzerland, Posts 65

Thanks Dietz for the update on MIR! It sounds very exciting and promising, especially if you can use it as a "normal" convo verb. So it's still a few months away, and VE3 will likely be released before, if I read correctly. I wonder at what point you will consider it to be "acceptable" in term of performance: when you can run it at 50% quality in real-time? Another difficult question is the price tag. Since most people are already using other reverbs (AV6, ...) with convincing results, how much would they pay to use MIR instead? That's tough to answer, for sure...

But what a monster this MIR must be! It probably eats quad-cores at breakfast... Stick out tongue

Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2008 10:18
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7291
Quote:
But what a monster this MIR must be! It probably eats quad-cores at breakfast...
Two of them, and an eight-core for dessert! I took a recent quad-core as demo-machine with me to Frankfurt, and we had to scale down the engine to less than 20% of its possibilities to have full resolution (no head/tail separation of the IRs) in realtime.


But maybe we've found a new way to overcome these enourmous CPU-requirements in a very elegant way, making old-school off-line-rendering more or less unnecessary. Our developers dig into that right now, so it's still a bit uncertain. If we succeed, we will be able to use the MIR in full resolution (the equivalent of around 1.000 single convolutions for each microphone position) close to real time on a machine like to one I mentioned before.
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Tags: MIR
Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2008 14:52
by mon_art
Joined on Sat, Oct 23 2004, Switzerland, Posts 65

SurpriseSo you guys are also involved in quantum computers now?!? After Direct Note Access' announcement, nothing should surprise me anymore, but man...

Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2008 18:30
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7291
Quoting myself:
Quote:
Right now I have no new demos at hand which I would consider to be representative. I still have to link you to the early "proof-of-concept"-mixes available in our demo-zone, namely the complete "Pictures at an Exhibition".
DG was kind enough to point out in a private message that the "Pictures" may not be after everyone's fancy (for example his own ;-) ...), so you may be better off waiting for new, representative mixes using the actual MIR-engine.


Best,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Tags: MIR
Posted on Sat, Mar 15 2008 18:35
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 7291
Melodyne's DNA is a revolution, VSL's MIR is more of an evolution, I'd say. At least, the MIR won't blast the borders of copyrighs and mechanical rights as we knew it up to now.



And no - no quantum computers here, just good old "think different" :-)
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Tags: MIR
Posted on Sun, Mar 16 2008 04:39
by Ben Johnson
Joined on Tue, Dec 23 2003, Chicago, Illinois, Posts 126
DG wrote:
Simsy wrote:

I don't know what the Air policy is, but Abbey road won't allow sampling of the space for convolution reverb purposes.


DG

 

What a shame. They should know that the people who can afford to track at Abbey Road...will track at Abbey Road! What I mean is that I don't think their business would suffer as a result of some impulse responses

I've got it! We need some eccentric artist to infiltrate their studio who has written an all-sweeping sine wave album. :)

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