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  • String Realism

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    Hi there,

    I am working with Vienna Instruments Special Edition and I am looking for ways to make my strings sound more realistic. Currently, I am switching patches while playing, applying logic space designer reverb, and using xfade and expression automation within Vienna after hearing it. I have heard of people using filters to achieve a more realistic, wavery vibrato, but I am unsure how to do this. Does anyone have any tips as to making strings sound better and more realistic?

    Additionally, I am unsure of where to pan my strings. I usually pan them to the left and violins closes at about -5, then violas -10, cellos -15 and double basses -20. I apply a post reverb space designer and usually let in about 18 on the send dial for each track.

    I am looking for mixing tips with strings, just basically any suggestions. What do you do for soft, romantic strings? How do you mix them differently if you are looking for short fast, staccato (almost spiccato) war style strings? What about that huge, breathing, hollywood epic string sound like in lord of the rings and movies like that?

    Thanks very much, Any tips on how you automate, what you apply, things to think about, how you mix differently are much appreciated. And I mean MUCH!

    Bob
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    The "Video Tutorial" section of VSL's website might be exactly what you're searching for. There are a couple of fantastic videos concerning Special Edition (I supose that's what you're exactly lookin' for) that shows how composer Christian Kardais from VSL team works with VI SE and there's also a video only about mixing, panning, how to use the reverb, organisation of sections, and many more...

    Hope that might help you a litte.

    Good luck!

    Andie 
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    This may be very rude, and I think Christian is incredibly talented but I really dont like what he did in the videos. I liked the music but the panning to me and the mixing, it seems too easy... When I do that at home it never comes out right, I supposed I am searching for something a little deeper in regard to mixing vienna strings. To me christians video seems very oriented to the beginner composer. Bob
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    There are many things you can do to improve realism, so here are just a few:

    1. Layering; never just use one patch. Real players never play exactly at the same time, so you need to play each line in independently.
    2. Pitch shift. Always use a little, subtle Pitch Shift on the smallest of your layerings form time to time, as that will help to avoid it all sounding too processed.
    3. Portamento. Use this sparingly, and always in the smallest of your layerings, unless it is a feature.
    4. Position changing. Take into account when the players are likely to have to change position, and build that in, using fake portamento (French, not Russian). Tutorial to come when I have more time.....!
    5. Bow changes. When playing legato the bow is not an endless length, so you need to put a small stress at the start of each bow. Don't necessarily do this with all your layerings, or you could end up with a very bumpy legato.
    6. Pick a string piece that you know very well and try to match the recording with your programming. Analyse where yours is different and try to figure out why. Then see what you can do to fake this difference using your samples.
    7. Don't use the panning in Logic.[;)]
    8. Put your various layerings at different depths in your reverb. You don't always want to hear the smaller groups at the front. That may be the way one hears it on a commercial recording, but with samples it just makes the section seem smaller.

    OK, I hope that this is enough to think about for now.

    DG
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    Very good Daryl - have you gone Potty btw> :)))

    Logic panning is not very good - agreed. The VE has power panning I understand - is that right?

    All Daryl's points are very good and should be noted. Making strings sound realistic how though? This is always coming up. We are using samples and to get a realistic what? is always my question. You can get great sounds from the VSL strings - but I never understand what realistic means. You mean you want to fool someone into thinking it's a real orchestra they're listening to? That's easy in the extreme - you don't even have to pan. :))

    On panning: I notice that when you listen a sample rendition, a lot of the time things are panned way too much. If you sit dead centre of a real orchestra, the panning is actually not that extreme.

    Yeah - haha! The huge, epic string sound of Hollywood. (LOTR sound is NOT epic in my view) - there is probably no such thing. What you're talking about is more to with fantastic orchestration and the stuff that's going on under the strings - like woodwinds and brass development and general all round orchestration support.

    I would add to Daryl's excellent points - when using string samples, don't get bogged down on 14 violins etc etc. Use as much layering as you like if it's just the sound you're after.
    The amount of violins in a sampled piece, only becomes an issue if you're then taking it to a real orchestra and want it to sound like what you may have achieved on a computer.

    As a matter of fact, in recent times, so-called writers for the orchestra have had major difficulties with a real orchestra, because they wind up wanting the real orchestra to sound like the sampled orchestral version and cannot of course - because they've used 67 violins, 45 violas, 29 cellos and 3000 double basses ( and a Moog).
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    [quote=PaulR]........... have you gone Potty btw> :)))

    Not until August, thank goodness. Still as sane as ever ATM [;)]

    DG
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    Thanks very much for the replies. I suppose I should rephrase my question. I dont want the strings to sound more realistic, but I do want them to sound like a real orchestra. I know alot of it is great orchestration. I am considering going to the Scott Smalley course in LA to learn some of the Hollywood tools and tricks. I guess my main problem is that I am sending alot of my mixes out to established composers (I am still young and new and learning) and they are saying, your midistration sounds fake, it is too simple, and things like that. Orchestration is one area I will continue to study but I am really thankful to DG because those are very useable tips. How do you articulate the bowing differently though? You said it should start and stop at different points. I was also wondering with layering, how many violin tracks would you typically have in a song? Could someone post something they have done using special edition so that I can ask a few questions about it? Bob
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    Bob, I would suggest that you find a composer whose MIDI mock-ups you like and see if you can get them to show you how they do stuff in return for a bit of your time to help them with other stuff.

    Regarding orchestration, there is a wealth of great study material out there, as well of centuries of scores to study. Learn to orchestrate well first, and then worry about how to translate it to MIDIstration. However, leaving orchestration aside, mock-up existing classical pieces and you'll soon find what questions to ask. As I've never heard anything you've done I can't be more specific. You must also realise that many of these composers that you're sending stuff to might not have much of a clue what an orchestra sound like. [;)]

    DG
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    Daryl is right again Bob.

    Let's hear something Bob and don't worry - my midi, writing and orchestration isn't exactly Jay Bacal standard. Need to hear what you've done to be of any further use.
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    Yeah, about orchestration I can recommend you "The Study Of Orchestration" of Samuel Adler. Exists only in english, but as far as I understand you're from the USA. The book is in my opinion one of the best about orchestration, instrumentation available nowadays! And the good thing is that it contains also CDs with sound clips to the given examples and videos (about specific techniques on individual instruments) and if you have enought money and time then there's also the "Workbook" with tons of exercises to develop your skills and technique in orchestration/instrumentation.

    Check in Amazon, I think in USA it might be even a little cheaper than here. The CDs (they're around 5 or 6) must be purchased seperately from the book.

    I think it's the best one you can get, exactly because of the fact that it has sound and video samples makes it much more effective.

    It will also give you answers to your question how to achive such a lush and rich string part.

    Otherwise there are also other good books like Hans Kunitz "Instrumentationslehre", they are around 13 single books for each instrument/section. But it has never been translated from german. Or Richard Strauss/Hector Berlioz "Instrumentation" is a fantastic book but a little old fashioned, stuck a little in the late romantic periode, instead Samuel Adler's "Study Of Orchestration" shows also modern contemporary instrument techniques, though he puts focus on traditional orchestration from baroque, classic, romantic, impressionism to 20th century literature (Stravinsky, Schönberg, Bartok, Webern, Penderecki and more american contemporary composers than european ones)

    Good luck!

    Andie 
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    Here are the links: 

    the "Study of Orchestration" (main book): 

    http://www.amazon.com/Study-Orchestration-Third-Samuel-Adler/dp/039397572X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206554889&sr=8-1

    the additional "Workbook":

    http://www.amazon.com/Workbook-Study-Orchestration-Third-Samuel/dp/0393977005/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206554922&sr=8-2

    couldn't find the additional CDs on Amazon, but I'm sure they're still available (I bought them just 2 years ago).
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    Hi there, Thanks again so much! I have already ordered the Samuel Adler book and began reading Rimsky a few days ago and am almost finished. There are alot of rules of thumb to remember in orchestration! Anyways, here is a sample of my work, feel free to critique the mixing and the orchestration. If you want to suggest points where there should be a counter melody, ornamentation, or different instruments used and changing I am open to that as well. I hope to win a spot at the ASCAP workshop this year and submitted a demo. I have also tried to find internships but since I am Canadian I cannot get into the states for one. I joined the Guild of Canadian Composers and hopefully I will win a spot on their mentorship program next year, although there is only 3 spots in the country and it only occurs once a year. Thanks again, Bob Graham Here is the link: http://www.box.net/shared/wxur9jsw0w and another for good measure-thanks to Heteroyn for a template to help me make the mix on this one: http://www.box.net/shared/yijbnoj4s4
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    Hi Bob

    Well I quite like that - it's OK. It's not a disaster by any means.

    If you were to ask me to be brutal, I would probably suggest a couple of things that are just personal taste really.

    The sound is a bit flat - that is to suggest a bit 2 - dimensional. Everything is melding into itself giving the listener little direction, thus the mind starts to wander. It's a fairly busy piece and just needs a bit of time and space.

    The writing is OK - you mentioned counter melody - there is some attempt of that here right? I like to hear contrapuntal things going on in pieces - again that's just personal taste.
    (a) I would suggest that for an exercise you do what Daryl suggested re: a well known orchestral piece (not too long) and give it go with VSL.
    (b) As another exercise, try writing something a little simpler and give yourself a couple of melodies that weave in and out and around themselves (about a minute long) - AND when you choose the instrumentation from the start - stick to it throughout and DON'T add later. Just as an exercise you understand :) Things tend to meander otherwise. I'm no expert btw.

    PR
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    Hi guys, there's some great tips here, not wanting to completely hijack the thread, but I'm looking for some advice on how you take one or two melodies that sound great on piano but when I try and split out the parts to strings, woods, brass etc it sounds pretty dire. So anybody any useful tips about how to develop the melodies and themes and introduce more - anything other than counterpoint would be great!

    Best
    Tim
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    @timkiel said:

    Hi guys, there's some great tips here, not wanting to completely hijack the thread, but I'm looking for some advice on how you take one or two melodies that sound great on piano but when I try and split out the parts to strings, woods, brass etc it sounds pretty dire. So anybody any useful tips about how to develop the melodies and themes and introduce more - anything other than counterpoint would be great!

    Best
    Tim



    That's probably just choice of instrumentation - everyone does that. That's why for hacks like me, sample libraries are a great aid. I just don't have the ears, technique or general skills required to hear it all and then write it out on paper so it sounds remotely any good.

    Contrapuntal and Counterpoint are obviously sort of related. Counterpoint is useful for taking a theme and developing it - then a new one with the old theme underneath as it were. Great way to develop themes and sound like Handel or Bach. Contrapuntal is what you're talking about I think.

    Why don't you put the piano piece up for a listen.
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    Ok, so the piano piece can be downloaded at www.timkiel.com/Piano_Demo.mp3 - it's a fairly simple straight forward piece so please don't laugh too much. But that makes it more infuriating when it comes to try and arrange it for strings or orchestra. Any ideas on where to start would be great.

    TIA

    Tim
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    You hijacked my thread and now I hate you!!!! No Im just kidding, I listened to the piano piece and it shows potential. I really think it is a question of how you want to orchestrate it and what musical ornamentation or counterpoint you want to throw in. I intentionally write my music very simple because I want to stand apart and have a personal style.... Its all just about what you want to do. You can read about orchestration for free and download online examples at northernsounds.com but i dont recommend their products. I recommend Vienna its much better. Bob
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    Also, If all your looking for is straight up suggestions on what to do with it, I will try. You should start with the piano line and worry about adding in extra counter point etc later. I think it might sound cool with a harp doing the arpeggios, the woodwinds carrying the chords and a solo violin or cello singing the melody for a while, after that it might be nice to hear the whole string section take over the chords, with the woodwinds playing along also to keep it soft. At this point a new instrument would need to do the melody and it may be cool to have once again a solo string or all the 1st violins doing it. Just suggestions, but its really up to you, where do you hear the piece going and how do you want to build it. Dont be intimidated just try something out then post it here and we can listen!
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    Thanks for posting Tim. I'm covered in paint and will try and get back tomorrow. Nice little piano piece - better than a lot of crappy filmscores actually. :))))
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    Bob - thanks for the suggestions, I'll see what I can do.  PaulR - thanks for the kind words look forward to any tips you have post decorating...

    Tim