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Last post Sat, Jul 05 2008 by Erik, 40 replies.
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Posted on Wed, Apr 02 2008 09:07
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi,

I just finished a string version of Over the rainbow (not arranged by myself, but by Frits Bayens, NL). I used only the Special Edition, with the sustain patch from the appassionata strings combined with the legato and portamento patches from the chamber strings. Will this combination touch the quality of the real Appassionata library in your point of view? I mean, it is a lot of money to buy both Appassionata libraries. So will this "poor man's version" do justice to this piece (and other works in the future)?

You'll find it here: http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbow.mp3

I did some slight EQ-ing; reverb: Origami (with that great stage positioners tool, works fine with the Vienna Ensemble by the way!)

Eager to read your comments/reviews!

Posted on Wed, Apr 02 2008 09:41
by christof
Joined on Tue, Jun 19 2007, Vienna/Austria, Posts 195

Hi Erik,

in my opinion you use the portamento too often, it does not sound natural, many people use them in a strange way and a string ensemble would never play like that.

I would use them especially between two half tones and rarely for bigger intervals but not too much.

You could also improve your mix if you try to  shift the tracks slightly in time, I mean for example second violins just a bit before the first violins (or after), and you could also try to change the pitch of each track(vl1 440Hz, vl.2 441), that adds some interesting coulour to the rather static sequencing.

Just some suggestions, thats all.

 christof

Posted on Fri, Apr 04 2008 11:49
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi Christof,

Thanks very much for your advice. I simply left out most portamenti, did some track shifting and set up the vl2. to 441 Hz, plus some fine EQ-ing for the vl2 group; plus some more humanizing (start time, duration etc.)

You will find the new result here.

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowB.mp3

After all I am eager to know however your opinion about especially the general strings sound, speaking of the way I combined patches (as I mentioned in the first posted message). Just nice to receive a comment from an expert like you.

PS I am impressed by your own works as presented on your site! Great stuff!

Posted on Fri, Apr 04 2008 12:23
by DG
Joined on Wed, May 12 2004, Posts 8608

OK, there are various things that can be done to improve the programming. Let's deal with the first, and most important two (IMO) first:

  1. The tempo is far too static. Personally I would play the arrangement in without click, wrong notes and all, and the match my click track to the performance that I just did.
  2. Each string line needs to have its own life and shape. It sounds very blocky to me. I know that you've done some nice little faces, but they need to be much more independent of each other. Make sure that you play all the divisi in on separate tracks, so that they are also independent.

When you have dealt with these points, assuming that you agree with them, then post again, and then we can see how to take it to the next level.



DG
Nuendo 6.03, 4.3
2 x Intel Xeon x5675 3.07GHz Hex Core
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Posted on Fri, Apr 04 2008 15:02
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi DG,

Thanks very much for your reply on the Over the rainbow B version. As you indicated, I have made a more interesting tempo track now, plus divided the appassionata (sustain) and chamber strings  (sustain, legato and portamento) into (8) different tracks (plus adjusted the stage settings in Origami). I also made slightly different settings of the VelocityXfade in neighbouring  tracks, so crescendo and decrescendo are slightly different in this version . Also exact and very detailed placement settings of the tracks themselves have been improved (audible, I hope at least of course). 

So here is number 3: the C version: http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowC.mp3

You are most welcome to submit your point of view and experience on this demo again. Any suggestions in the issue "will the Special Edition touch this way the quality of the Appassionata Library?".

Thanks!

Erik

Posted on Fri, Apr 04 2008 15:10
by christof
Joined on Tue, Jun 19 2007, Vienna/Austria, Posts 195

Hi Erik,

the third version sounds much better than the first one!

Did you use velocity x-fade?

I would like to try myself some tweakings on this tune, would you allow me to ask you for the midi file?

I could send you my result or even my project files if you also work with Logic?

Just a thought, maybe it could help you,

christof

Posted on Fri, Apr 04 2008 15:34
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi Christof,

That is a nice reply!

Of course you can have the midi file: http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowC.MID

Settings on channels 1-4 the appassionata sustain vl-vl-vla-vlc

Settings on channels 5-8 the chamber strings vl-vl-vla-vlc: sustain CC2 0-10; legato CC2 11-67; portamento CC2 >68

All patches are with velocity crossfaded with CC1.

I forgot to mention that I made very very tiny differences in the EQ on all channels.

Have a nice time with this charming arrangement!

And...... sorry, but I am an oldfashioned PC user (actually more for money reasons, just can't afford the Mac I want, plus buying new software). Usually starting in Sibelius, than tweaking later on in Samplitude. So this means, that I don't use your great Logic program.

regards Erik

Posted on Fri, Apr 04 2008 16:24
by Rob Elliott
Joined on Sun, Feb 02 2003, Salt Lake City, UT, Posts 1659

 If I could throw my $.02 (not that that means much with currency nowadaysBig Smile

Go 'whacko' on the tempo variations (figure what will be too much and back it off - just a tad) - for this piece it just needs to be more emotive (on the tempo and velxfade side of things).   Still sounds too robotic to my ears.

Also use attack and release - via controllers and that will help on the expression.

--I will say this is a nice exercise to see something get better and better.   This is the sort of process / example  that helps all our programming chops.

Rob 

what would you attempt to do if you knew you could not fail?
Posted on Sat, Apr 05 2008 13:09
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi Rob,

This thread is going to be more interesting every day now! Thanks for your contribution. I have made an even more rubato version (version D)already:

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowD.mp3

I think, that more changes of tempo will be unnatural, but perhaps you're not satisfied yet....

The tweaking on the VelXfade and the attack/release on all channels will take some more time, but I am working on it. It makes a difference indeed, as far as I have noticed until now!. Thanks again. I'll keep you informed of course.

regards,

Erik

Posted on Sat, Apr 05 2008 14:26
by icgant_7585
Joined on Sat, Jul 31 2004, Posts 29
Hello Erik.

Maybe my 2 cents will help you just a little.

Try and think of the relationship between the parts a little more, what is important to the melodic and what is say, a harmonic filler. Try and feel these a little more and the blockiness might start to free itself.

Goodluck... I also find this thread very interesting and helpful. Cheers Ian


Posted on Sat, Apr 05 2008 15:42
by Dietz
Joined on Tue, Aug 06 2002, Vienna / Europe, Posts 8147
Dear Forum Members,


I hope you don't mind if I move this interesting thread to the Orchestration Forum.


Kind regards,
/Dietz - Vienna Symphonic Library
Posted on Sat, Apr 05 2008 18:23
by Basstardo
Joined on Sun, Aug 26 2007, Salzburg, AUSTRIA, Posts 43

Nice to see how it improves each time. I think this forum is really fantastic, not like other forums to post only bugs and issues with the software, instead to talk about artistical and really usefull and helpful things to improve your way of working with a lot of experts that really know what they're doing and saying.I really have to say my compliments to VSL and all users what they've made out of that forum is fantastic! (there are really far too many messy forums out there...)

I'll get my VI SE in a couple of weeks and I would like to ask you (only if you have time, of course) to show the same arrangement with the ordinary "orchestral strings" only (instead of your mixture of Appasionata/Chambers). Would be interesting to hear the difference, as I'll purchase only the Standard Edition at the moment.

Thanks and best wishes!

Andie 

iMac 27" 5K (i7 4,2 GHz, 16 GB Ram, 512 GB Flash, OS X 10.12.3) | Macbook Pro | RME Fireface UCX | Adam A3X studio speakers | Logic Pro X | Avid Pro Tools 12 | Finale 25 | VSL Vienna SE Vol.1 & 2 + Strings PLUS & Epic Orchestra | VSL Brass 1 | Vienna Instruments PRO 2 | Vienna Ensemble PRO 5 | Ivory Grand Pianos 2 | Spectrasonics (Omnisphere & Stylus RMX) | Arturia V-Collection 3 | Addictive Drums | NI Komplete 9 Ultimate | Spitfire Audio (Albion I & IV, Albion ONE) | Cinesamples (Cinebrass Core & Pro, Cineperc) | and many more ...
Posted on Mon, Apr 07 2008 12:55
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Dear Andie,

on your request................

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowD-SEOrchStr.mp3

So on channels 1-4: vl-vl-vla-vlc, with the sustain, legato and portamento patches form the Orchestra strings SE.

I am still working on version E now with the original track settings. 

Enjoy this version!

Erik

Posted on Fri, Apr 11 2008 09:23
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi,

Now the version after tweaking the attack and release parameters in most (!) tracks.

Just for the record I have added the proper midi file this time (the last one was corrupted somehow, some notes were shifted, don't ask me how). 

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowE.MID

The sound file is here: 

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowE.mp3

I am intending to make another step forward with some small pitch randomizing. Is this a good idea? 

Please post your comments! You are most welcome to do so!

Regards to all, Erik

Posted on Sun, Apr 13 2008 11:24
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi,

This is the randomized pitch version: I made very small changes of pitching (with a special plugin for this), plus a more elobarated EQ per channel, also with very small differences.

http://www.musesamples.com/MP3-ErikOtte/OverTheRainbowF.mp3

Hope to hear from somebody soon!

Regards, Erik

Posted on Sun, Apr 13 2008 18:56
by Revson
Joined on Sun, Mar 18 2007, Posts 42
Very cool, my kinda stuff. Beautiful arrangement.
Posted on Mon, Apr 14 2008 13:16
by Basstardo
Joined on Sun, Aug 26 2007, Salzburg, AUSTRIA, Posts 43

Thanks for doing the "orchestral string" version for me! really nice.

Thanks and all the best,

Andie 

iMac 27" 5K (i7 4,2 GHz, 16 GB Ram, 512 GB Flash, OS X 10.12.3) | Macbook Pro | RME Fireface UCX | Adam A3X studio speakers | Logic Pro X | Avid Pro Tools 12 | Finale 25 | VSL Vienna SE Vol.1 & 2 + Strings PLUS & Epic Orchestra | VSL Brass 1 | Vienna Instruments PRO 2 | Vienna Ensemble PRO 5 | Ivory Grand Pianos 2 | Spectrasonics (Omnisphere & Stylus RMX) | Arturia V-Collection 3 | Addictive Drums | NI Komplete 9 Ultimate | Spitfire Audio (Albion I & IV, Albion ONE) | Cinesamples (Cinebrass Core & Pro, Cineperc) | and many more ...
Posted on Wed, Apr 16 2008 17:56
by ColinThomson
Joined on Sun, Mar 25 2007, Posts 242
DG wrote:

OK, there are various things that can be done to improve the programming. Let's deal with the first, and most important two (IMO) first:

  1. The tempo is far too static. Personally I would play the arrangement in without click, wrong notes and all, and the match my click track to the performance that I just did.
  2. Each string line needs to have its own life and shape. It sounds very blocky to me. I know that you've done some nice little faces, but they need to be much more independent of each other. Make sure that you play all the divisi in on separate tracks, so that they are also independent.

When you have dealt with these points, assuming that you agree with them, then post again, and then we can see how to take it to the next level.

 

DG




How do you match a click track to a performance?

Very nice piece, and fascinating to listen to it improve.


Colin Thomson
Colin Thomson
Posted on Thu, Apr 17 2008 21:54
by Erik
Joined on Sat, Nov 20 2004, The Netherlands, Posts 144

Hi Colin,

I just tweaked the tempo in the sequencer I used (Samplitude). Most sequencers have a tempo function (Sonar, Tracktion etc.), A simpler version of this function is implemented in notation software like Sibelius.

As far as I know only Notion has a real tempo track built in, but this software is not my favourite one.

Erik

Posted on Sat, Apr 26 2008 22:51
by Steve Martin
Joined on Sat, Sep 17 2005, Queensland, Australia, Posts 574

Hi Erik,

very, very nice arrangement, and thanks for posting it. I have downloaded your midi file to try it out, but I am not sure what you mean by this:

"Settings on channels 5-8 the chamber strings vl-vl-vla-vlc: sustain CC2 0-10; legato CC2 11-67; portamento CC2 >68"

I think you are meaning the controllers for each sustain, legato, and portamento patch but I am not sure.

Thanks if you can let me know.

best,

Steve.Big Smile 

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