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  • Appassionata Strings question

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    Im sure I will have lots of people mad at me after this.

    But Im having a very hard time getting a good sound out of the Appassionata strings i just ordered. I own Garritan Personal Orchestra and EWSO silver as well and am having better results with Garritan so far. I beleive Im to used to garritan controls and i am having difficulty with Vienna's . Ive listened to tons of demos for the Appassionata strings and they sound very good I just can't get mine to sound the same. It seems like some of the samples attack is either to fast or to slow for what im doing, and changing the attack gives me these weird clicking sounds everytime i play the next key. Im having a hard time getting a very smooth natural sound when Im playing fast or slow. Do you guys use the presets it comes with or make your own? Is there possibly a video tutorial specifically for Appassionata strings?  Also I have heard that you need a special kind of reverb for orchestra samples. Convulution reverb I believe.  Most of my reverbs sound dreadful when I use them with orchestral samples. Is the right reverb expensive and does it help with the sound of Appassionata strings?  
  • K
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    Hi Nick, For reverb with orchestral samples, your best bet is Altiverb (www.audioease.com). It's a bit pricey but worth every penny. It really is the most realistic-sounding 'verb out there. It won't change the sound of the appassionata's, but it will change the room presence, for sure. There are some tutorial vids on this website about using the VI player, but if you're getting weird attacks and not getting a smooth sound, you may not be playing the legato instruments correctly. Be sure to use the "Performance Interval" patches, and be sure to hold down a note while you're switching to the next note. Also, to bring out the realism in these samples, you really do need to use a modwheel or joystick for crossfading through velocity layers, AND the expression pedal to control the volume. Modwheel+pedal results in a sound that truly sounds like musicians as they would play it. If you're just playing single notes without doing anything on the modwheel or the expression pedal, you're probably just getting a very straightforward and synthy-sounding string section. Also, a lot of people make the mistake of having all of their volume sliders set to "0.0 db" when recording... your best bet is to start them off lower, at -10 to -8db. I haven't had much need to try the presets, but but if you're doing legato lines a preset really isn't necessary. Just load up the single patch you want to use, and start playin'. Kerry
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    I would say that the right convoluted reverb does help the VE sound tremendously.  Some folks on this forum will swear by the Altiverb plug-in as the best convoluted reverb on the market but, for me, the Perfect Space reverb that came built in with my VE collections work just fine.  In my opinion, Altiverb is a little pricey but I guess it would depend on your personal tastes. 

    I think most users make their own presets as it allows you more flexibility in your work, especially the performance samples.  But the presets shouldn't have anything to do with getting VE to sound natural when working with it.  It just a matter of getting used to it. 

    In what interface are you changing the attacks?  I don't know about AS, but in my collections, the attacks in the Edit Cell function give me better results than in the Perform interface.  The clicks might have something to do with your set up?

    As I was auditioning sample libraries, I felt that the legato lines from Garriton demos sounded too synthy and EWSO was recorded with too much reverb and sounded too big and Hollywoodish.  That's fine if that's what your looking for but, sometimes I like to compose more intimate pieces requiring a smaller dryer sound.  Don't get me wrong I think EWSO produces a fine product (I have their Symphonic Chior collection) but it's harder to make a small sound from something that was recorded large than it is to make a large sound from something that was recorded small.  To be honest, I've never worked with Garriton or EWSO so I guess I can't really give you a fair comparison.     
  • N
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    Hey thanks for the response. Ok so I set the expression control to cc1 which is the modulation wheel and that has helped. When you say to crossfade between velocity layers, do you mean like crossfading from a sustain to tremolo using mod wheel? $595 for reverb?? I dont think im ready to make that jump yet. .[:O]  So does it really make a noticeable difference with it? Is this what most Vienna users use? I also have another question. All the different sections like violins, viola, etc arent panned according to the where they actually are in the orchestra are they?

  • K
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    Do the VE's/VI's come with a built-in reverb? Where!! I wanna try it out!
  • K
    K
    Set the expression to be a pedal. Use the modwheel to control Velocity XFade. That's your best bet. Check out the demo videos to see how to do this. The sections aren't panned to their locations in the orchestra; you have to pan them yourself. In Altiverb you can place them onto a virtual stage, which is a great feature to have.
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    @Kerry Muzzey said:

    Do the VE's/VI's come with a built-in reverb? Where!! I wanna try it out!

    In my collections (Vienna Ensemble Special Edition,, Brass I, Woodwinds I, Ochestral Stings I, and Chamber Strings I) it's called "Perfect Space."  If you're using VE, click in the bus view then click in "Insert Effect."  It should give you a list of effects, one of which will be "Perfect Space."  Once you see it on your bus fader, double click it and it will bring up the interface.  It took me a while to figure out how to run it but play around with it a little bit and you should get it to work.  It says that it's a convoluted reverb.

    Have fun with it. 
  • A
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    Are you using Sonar 6 or 7?

    If so, then yes, "Perfect Space" will show up as an available reverb as it installs as part of Sonar.
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    Just a quick thought - but are you using previously written material and then trying to apply the App strings to that?
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    @PaulR said:

    Just a quick thought - but are you using previously written material and then trying to apply the App strings to that?
     

    No Im starting a new project and just trying to get a feel for the strings and playing them in real time. It seems like with a lot of the legato strings I will get some really loud notes and really quiet ones when im playing a few simple notes, like the velocity is really sensitive. Maybe that has to do with my keyboard but I have tried all the differnet velocity levels on it.   
  • E
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    Did you use the velocity crossfading already?

    And have you some money left for a convolution verb like Voxengo's Pristine Space? 

    There is a free one however on http://www.knufinke.de/sir/sir1.html SIR, which I can recommend you for the first time.

    And last but not least; I started a few weeks ago a thread on this forum in which the Appasionata strings SE plus play a significant role. So this might be interesting for you. http://community.vsl.co.at/forums/p/18498/131158.aspx#131158.

    I don't have the full version by the way of the Appasionata strings, but I guess this won't matter much in this respect.

    I also have the GPO, but I prefer the VSL SE in terms of realism. Although I must say that it took some time to find out the advantages of especially the release parameter (in the perform tab) using stringed instruments from the orchestra.

    Don't give up, you won't be dissappointed after some investment in this product![:)]

    Erik
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    A lot of people have been asking if I am using the velocity crossfading, and Im not to sure what that is. I know you can cross fade between to patches like sustain and tremolo with the modulation wheel, but I think you guys mean something else. Could you please explain the velocity crossfading? I have watched several video tutorials but do not recall seeing it in there.  
  • K
    K
    Velocity Xfading is probably the single most important feature of the VI's in terms of obtaining realism. Once you figure it out, the library comes to life, whether it's with strings or winds or brass. You'll see performance legato patches in the App Strings -- pick the one with "4_vel" at the end. This means that the strings were recorded at 4 levels of "intensity." The same patches exist with the other VI libraries, so if you pick the flute "4_vel" patch, you have a flute recorded at 4 different levels of intensity, the louder of those levels containing more wind and vibrato. Here's how to access it, and this is also contained in the tutorial vids: - pick a "perf-legato_4vel" patch - go to the PERFORM menu - click the radio button for Velocity XFade in the "Perform Control" menu - click "Map Control" menu - 2nd to last in the list is Velocity Crossfader... highlight "NONE" and then below there, select PITCH WHEEL which should assign the velocity to your modwheel or joystick Bingo, you have access to the velocity layers. K
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    @AlistairL said:

    Are you using Sonar 6 or 7?

    If so, then yes, "Perfect Space" will show up as an available reverb as it installs as part of Sonar.

    I'm using Sonar 7.  I didn't know that Perfect Space was part of Sonar and not VE.  Thank you for clearing that up.  

    Sorry to get your hopes up Kerry Muzzey, I'll be more careful next time. 
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    @Kerry Muzzey said:

    Velocity Xfading is probably the single most important feature of the VI's in terms of obtaining realism. Once you figure it out, the library comes to life, whether it's with strings or winds or brass. You'll see performance legato patches in the App Strings -- pick the one with "4_vel" at the end. This means that the strings were recorded at 4 levels of "intensity." The same patches exist with the other VI libraries, so if you pick the flute "4_vel" patch, you have a flute recorded at 4 different levels of intensity, the louder of those levels containing more wind and vibrato. Here's how to access it, and this is also contained in the tutorial vids: - pick a "perf-legato_4vel" patch - go to the PERFORM menu - click the radio button for Velocity XFade in the "Perform Control" menu - click "Map Control" menu - 2nd to last in the list is Velocity Crossfader... highlight "NONE" and then below there, select PITCH WHEEL which should assign the velocity to your modwheel or joystick Bingo, you have access to the velocity layers. K
     

    I set up all the controls that way for velocity crossfading and that has helped a lot but for some reason theres still some legatos that still sound synthy. I notice that the legatos with the L2 next to themn are fine when Im using the velocity crossfade and the one with the standard library have clicks and sound kinda off. Thanks for the help guys.

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    Are you sure that the release is set on 50 or (better) higher (between 55 and 65)? Below 50 you'll hear a very artificial release sound. Actually I don't know why it is in the patch anyway, this strange and unnatural sound. So check in the PERFORM section > perform control !

    Erik
  • T
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    You really have to use the crossfade and expression controls if you want a realistic sound. Beyond that you can also put the release and filter to work. The release tends to sound better on slower passages if you put it around 60. The filter is really good for toning down the brass and sord strings. Also, switching between rep patches and other articulations make things come to life. The main thing is that you to have learn all of these and put them to use to really get the most out of your performances. It takes a little time to get a system down that works for you. It isn't just going to happen right out of the box. After that you will find just how powerful and realistic the lib can be.
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    I also have been having a hard time with App Strings. (I am coming from the EWQL camp as well) It seems like App strings is really only worth it if you have the extended lib as well, is this the consensus? The main difference I can see beyond it and the SE strings is that it has the perf legato patches and sounds richer, is there more to the standard edition than that? I'm looking for the "4_vel" patches and can't find them, so I'm guessing they are in the ext lib as well? I appreciate all the help people give on this forum!