Vienna Ensemble - Open Source it Now!

[composer22]

VSL is swamped with high priority projects all competing for precious engineer resources and we can help!

I call on the VSL and the community to make VE 2 and 3 Open Source so we, the community and the needy, can take up the flag and make 64 bit OSX versions happen ASAP.

I need a 64 bit OSX Version now!

sigh-ned

composer22

[DG]

Was that a pig flying by? [:)]

Seriously, this is not going to happen, and even if it did, do you really thing that a bunch of random people can write something better and quicker than what is happening? I mean firstly it is Apple's fault that it has taken this long, and secondly there is nothing to stop you writing your own VI host and allowing it to connect to multiple standalones using virtual MIDI and audio cables. Trouble is that people have tried this already and it is not that successful on all systems.

DG

[stevesong]

 Composer22:

What DG is referring to (I surmise) when he says that "it is Apple"s fault" that there is not yet an OSX compatible 64 bit version of VI or VE is the following:

At the 2006 Apple Worldwide Developers' Conference, Apple told developers that it would release a 64 bit version of its Carbon Application Programmer Interface (API). However, in June 2007, Apple reversed itself and told developers that there would be no 64 bit version of Carbon and that developers would have to use Apple's more recent Cocoa API for 64 bit applications. This caused great consternation among developers large and small (.e.g Adobe's Photoshop is written using Carbon - - hence there is not yet a 64 bit version of Photoshop). Hence the delay in OSX compatible 64 bit versions of VI and VE. (Apple's own Logic is not 64 bit - - although EXS24, Logic 8's built in sampler reportedly is.) Rather than being upset with the folks at VSL for not yet having released an OSX compatible 64 bit versions of VI and VE, I would be thankful that, despite the monkey wrench Apple threw into things, they are working on 64 bit versions and will release them as soon as they are satisfied with their reliability. 

For a more detailed account of this bit of history check out the following link:

http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/06/13/64-bit-support-in-leopard-no-carbon-love 

[composer22]

But are we knot talking about the audio / memory lower level "engine" components here in terms of 64 bit needs? Doesn't cocoa have audio API to cover the needed hooks? Is there tight coupling between the UI and the engine here? Or could not the memory / audio portion of the VE architecture be split out of the UI e.g. have the UI remain Carbon, but the lower layer be built on Cocoa 64 bit?

[DG]

@composer22 said:

But are we knot talking about the audio / memory lower level "engine" components here in terms of 64 bit needs? Doesn't cocoa have audio API to cover the needed hooks? Is there tight coupling between the UI and the engine here? Or could not the memory / audio portion of the VE architecture be split out of the UI e.g. have the UI remain Carbon, but the lower layer be built on Cocoa 64 bit?

We are talking about a cross-platform application, which AFAIK narrows down options.

[composer22]

Yes if they are using some combined framework tool - perhaps - but perhaps knot. The lower level components might be the same and MS version is already 64 bit. This might be leveragable?.

[DG]

@composer22 said:

Yes if they are using some combined framework tool - perhaps - but perhaps knot. The lower level components might be the same and MS version is already 64 bit. This might be leveragable?.

AFAIK when Leopard was released, Apple didn't release the information that was needed in order to compile 64bit applications. I gather that this might have changed now, but of course the development cycle is well behind the Windows platform, particularly as 64bit has been possible in Windows for around 3 years, not just 6 months as on OSX. I'm sure that VSL is working as fast as possible on this, so I think that you just have to be patient. If other companies were producing 64bit applications, then one could accuse them of dragging their feet, but as Apple hasn't even managed a 64bit version of Logic, I think that it is safe to say that VSL is not behind the competition.

DG

[PierreFunck]

With VE2 you could use more than 4GB by running several instances of the standalone version: that was a perfect workaround for the 32-bit-limitations. What I find *really* disappointing is that this workaround doesn't work any more with VE3 -- a big step backwards...

Cheers

Pitt

[cm]

@DG said:

Was that a pig flying by?

ROTFL - that reminds me on the pink floyd animals tour ... at least i think it was called so ... or was it dark side of the moon?

 

stevesong gave already the right overview and searching for OSX and 64bit here in the forum might dig out a series of further explanations

 

sidestep: pitt, VE3 is intentionally a network solution and AFAIK the stand-alone can open as many instances as the VE2 stand-alone (remember: separate process = separate memory space up to what the 64bit operating system allows)

 

back to the flying pig ... i'd consider it actually as ridiculous to call for handing over VI to the Open Source (would you ask this for kontakt, giga and EXS too?

and: how would you think *open source* will setup a license agreement with syncrosoft?

or at first: with VSL, because which other sounds than such configured by VSL would even be able to use this very complex engine?

 

so to counterquestion this clearly: do you expect VSL to make performance detection open source?

christian

[composer22]

I feel very very sad today.

Firstly, the 64 bit OSX news above...which I appreciate the details on

Then I find that Sibelius is somehow unable to load more than 1.78G of sounds in 2 instances of VE2 within the VSL service.

Then this bit of news that VE 3 doesnt really support multiple instances.

So, whats the best course of action here? Do we use VE2 in stand alone instances, when working from one machine until something is fixed?

[DG]

[quote=composer22]I feel very very sad today.

If you tell us more about what machine, what workflow etc., you will get good advice on the best, temporary course of action for you.

DG

[cm]

@composer22 said:

Then this bit of news that VE 3 doesnt really support multiple instances.

sorry, i don't understand this statement ... i have seen with my own eyes multiple instances of VE (3) open across network or actually on the localhost.

christian

[composer22]

That would be very helpful and appreciated.

MAIN DAW
Mac Pro 8 (early 2008) 2.88Gz
16 Gig Ram
3 GT050Q eSata Drives (500 [VSL SE] + 500 [Empty] + 250[audio] Gigs each)
3 internals Drives (1 = boot; 2 + 3 RAID 0 samples 1T; 4 = audio 500G)
No Audio Card - currently have JackOSX installed until I figure out what PCIe want to buy
Sonnet EP4 eSata Controller
30" Cinematic Display
21" Samsung Syncmaster
Keystation 88
Performer
Logic Studio
Altiverb
Finale
Sibelius
VSL SE PLUS FULL
Ivory
Other legacy GigaStudio crappy sounds.
SLAVE via Ethernet
mac Book Pro 2.33Gz 3G Ram 7200 internal drive
Logic Node
Sibelius
Finale

Currently score writing capability a priority for current short term projects. Would like to utilize Sibelius for composition, orchestration mockups and take advantage of sound sets for VSL SE. At some point export into Logic for cleanup and mastering. Heavy Finale user but presently moving away for standardization purposes with other people I work with. Any standarizations here will be distributed to my partners

Toward end of summer, have a small number of film gigs and will need the more elaborate sequencer setup + additional VSL samples hence why so many drives are there right at the start. Need to flush out the templates I will need with partners who are working on their own rigs hence why configuring early (and dumping old PC crapola). workflow time period will be critical, so we are coordinating for dry rehearsals of interfacing with each other since we all live all over the place.

Where I am now with Sibelius workaround. I managed to create IAC buses enabling them in stand alone version of VSL SE. In Sibelius, these buses show up, but I am trying to get the soundsets to be available for these general MIDI instances. I believe the only change I need to make is to change the tag in the XML file to MIDI in a copy of VE Special Edition PLUS (Sib 5.2).xml and drop this change into user/foo/library/application support/sibelius software/sounds?

[composer22]

I think core technologies could remain under VSL and be binaries that they could link in during a build. The rest could be open license - GUI and general drivers etc. This is not unusual for open source projects to have some black boxing and clean room control for licensed or proprietary technologies that need to be protected.

[cm]

well, exactly the GUI is what's troublesome often ... the server is a *snap* to be done in 64bit (AFAIK it already compiles well with a beta version of the carbon API) ... anyway ... as long as i am only somehow in touch with support issues you will see me strictly voting against opensource.

 

regarding your post with the setup above: if i understand this right your main DAW is used as MASTER and the macBook as SLAVE (not clear to me from where sibelius acts) - but have you already considered to change roles? on the main DAW out of logic it shouldn't be a problem to run VE3 then as localhost after export.

christian

[composer22]

Everything is running on the DAW side now. The MBP is waaay too slow for working, the hard drive very small, + the screen resolution is painful - unable to support full resolution of this monitor. Small memory. Late 2006 purchase. Already thought about this and had it in mind when I went here. I'll use it for light edits and mastering on the road.

Love this MP 8 btw. Really tough using the MBP sometimes.

Not sure the benefit of flipping MASTER / SLAVE roles at this point? The current MASTER would still be restricted by memory ceiling of VE 2 or VE 3 instances if made into a Slave.
Basically, just trying to get instances up and working with Sibelius on MASTER right now so I can orchestrate these sketches and compose out another work asap.

PS: Any chance we could shortcut the GUI and just have a XML script or some other language / text to load samples etc into a daemon for VE instances? Most cases we dont need the dynamics of a UI and can set these static...just an idea

[DG]

[quote=composer22]Not sure the benefit of flipping MASTER / SLAVE roles at this point? The current MASTER would still be restricted by memory ceiling of VE 2 or VE 3 instances if made into a Slave.

The benefit, IMO, would be running XP64 on the Mac Pro via Bootcamp and being able to load many more samples over the network, without having to resort to clunky workarounds. That way, when 64bit is possible on OSX you could use the same machine the other way round; or not.

Of course the problem for you is that you run logic and DP, neither of which work in Windows, so I don't think that there is another neat solution.

DG

[PierreFunck]

@Another User said:

Hi Steve,
that´s correct.

... or did I misunderstand it? (Actually I hope so!)

Pitt 

[composer22]

Yeah the Logic would be a major diskspace problem on MBP. i could probably load in DP on MBP. I thought about VM's but that probably would be too slow considering Parallels uses single core I believe. I dont know about VMware. I suspect similar problems. Then the samples would also have to be loaded onto a NTFS or similar XP formatted drive if I go that route. I would HATE to touch a windoze product again...yukki

[Dietz]

@composer22 said:

[...] I would HATE to touch a windoze product again...yukki

An Austrian proverb: "Vor der vollen Schuessel verhungern." (... starving in front of the food-filled pot). 8-)