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Bricast Reverb with VSL
Last post Tue, Dec 30 2008 by Anonymous Joe, 37 replies.
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Posted on Fri, Jul 04 2008 08:21
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262
Has anybody put their mix through this new reverb unit. It reputed the best for creating real spaces.
WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Fri, Jul 04 2008 13:54
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1788

Hi

Here I've found a forum with examples....

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/127887-bricasti-m7-woohoooo.html 

Expensive reverb ->>> long thread. There are also (better) demos on page 5 and ...

Have fun

Beat 

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Jul 04 2008 14:33
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262
Hi Beat,

Thanks for the reply and link. I'd actually already read that thread in Gearslutz and listened to some of the examples of the Bricasti (the "large wooden room" sounds really incredible, even though the examples don't sound tweaked enough imo. I'm pretty sure that all of those recordings are live and done in various dry settings. I'm very(!) curious to hear what Bricasti can do for VSL. I think that we all agree that given the nature of how VSL was recorded (dry, semi-close mic'ed), that reverb is key in getting an autentic sound. The Bricasti is touted as being the far best for real acoustic spaces, and if anybody needs that, it's surely VSL.

I'm suprised none of the pro users here haven't jumped on this machine! Or maybe they're just not talking about it............

Anbody put a VSL mix though a Bricasti?
WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Fri, Jul 04 2008 15:30
by heathcliff_4650
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 18

Hi

I'm not the greatest engineer in the world (I'm a musician!) but I know how to apply reverb to my music and make it work.

I downloaded the M7 demo tracks, wet and dry versions of the solo cello, and applied a few of my plug-in reverbs to the dry samples, using similar spatial settings. Then I AB'd them against the M7 versions. The M7 is better yes... by about 5-10% at best. Don't laugh, but even Cubase's Roomworks Reverb achieved reasonably comparable results. In my humble opinion, only a true "gearslut" or someone running a ridiculously high-end studio should even consider an expensive hardware verb these days.

There are excellent plug-in verbs available for 1/20th of the price, and you'd have to be a psychoacoustics PhD to tell the difference!

If you've got the kind of money Bricast is asking for, invest it in a worthy charity, your mortgage, clothes for your kids, or even VSL! Big Smile Just a humble personal opinion.

Posted on Wed, Jul 09 2008 13:12
by RedLeicester
Joined on Thu, Jul 22 2004, UK, Posts 66

Heathcliff - why would someone who has spent £10,000+ on VSL want to put it through a free reverb, and not something higher quality?!

Ars Longa; Vita Brevis
Posted on Wed, Jul 09 2008 20:51
by heathcliff_4650
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 18

You're right. Realistically speaking, they wouldn't, unless the character of the free verb was to their liking. But it's true that most free verb plugins are not great. I wasn't really suggesting that you could shove VSL through any old free reverb. I'm saying that there are very good plugin reverbs that cost a fraction of units like Bricast, and they will probably rival it in terms of fidelity. Try the demos of IK Multimedia's Classic Studio Reverb, Or the Arts Acoustic reverb.

There are some very inexpensive convolution engines out there too. SIR is even free!

Like I said, I did an A/B test between Bricast and Roomverb in Cubase. They came out pretty close. You'd be surprised. I would post an mp3 of the results here, but I'm not sure the guy who created the original Bricast music file would approve.

Look, the fact is that if someone gave me Bricast as an early Christmas present, I'd grab it with a big silly grin all over my face. I'm sure it's a great unit. But there are viable software alternatives which produce amazing results at low cost. Smile

PS. There's a reverb plugin called Variverb Pro that is available as a free demo. The demo limitiations are actually pretty generous - it doesn't save or recall new presets. Apart from that you can use it as much as you like. It's still quite buggy, but it sounds great and it's up there with the best of them. Certainly, it's the best "free" reverb out there now.

Posted on Thu, Jul 10 2008 02:03
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262
I run VSL through Space designer and have just gotten a Lexicon PCM91 but yet to hook it up. I haven't heard the Bricasti in person, but some of the examples totally blow me away. I respectfully disagree that with Cubase reverb, or other good standards, that one can get that close. That 10% that you're talking about is probably what for me makes the real difference. For myself I'm not talking about just hearing some violins with a little pleasent reverb. For most other music applications (Vocals, drums, etc) reverbs have their role but its more about creating a "framework". But with VSL we need to be tricked into thinking that this is in Syphony Hall, and that's not that easy to do.

I'd bet that there are many "power users" running their VSL mixes through a Bricasti, but they don't read this forum unfortunately. I'm suprised that the developers at VSL haven't commented. I'd hardly believe that they'd spend millions developing this virtual world, but not 3000€ to show it in its prettiest dress?
WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Thu, Jul 10 2008 13:10
by heathcliff_4650
Joined on Fri, Jan 16 2004, Posts 18

I'd like to post the mp3 A/B test for you to judge for yourself. But, as I said, it would not be fair (or perhaps even legal) without approval from the original file's owner.

Ultimately, you or I or anyone can't really judge for sure without hands-on experience of Bricast. Demo tracks are one thing, but how it works in the real world, and how it integrates into the workflow is the true test.

Posted on Fri, Jul 11 2008 08:09
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262
Yes, probably not a good idea to post a sound retreived from others. Maybe soon someone with the unit will come upon the thread and post us some comparative examples of VSL through the various highend reverbs.

All best........
WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Sun, Jul 13 2008 03:34
by Casey
Joined on Sun, Jul 13 2008, Posts 2

Is anyone from the Boston area up for creating some demo files? I would be glad to come by with an M7 and spend some time making this happen.

-Casey

Posted on Sun, Jul 13 2008 13:48
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262
Hello Casey,

Thanks for the interest and availability. I've followed your very informative posts on the GS forum. I hope someone will show up who has some great arrangements using VSL that they can put through your unit. I'm very interested to hear what it sounds like. (p.s. my next reverb unit will probably be an M7!).

All best,
Jay-Alan Miller
Paris, France
WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Sun, Jul 13 2008 22:06
by laumathis_5335
Joined on Mon, Feb 23 2004, Posts 3

 Hi,

i am really curious to listen to vsl samples through what seems to be a great new reverb.

regards

Laurent

Posted on Fri, Aug 01 2008 08:30
by Revson
Joined on Sun, Mar 18 2007, Posts 42
The Bricasti is stunning. I found this last year: a cue realized in VSL by Andreas Koslik, run through three different presets on an M7:

original


Boston Hall


Concert Hall


Scoring Stage
Posted on Fri, Aug 01 2008 08:59
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262
It sounds fantastic!!! To my ears the Boston Hall preset sounds the most 3 dimentional....... really nice. I don't think I've heard VSL sound so "real" before, but lots of A/B ing would be necessary. I'm starting to think that haveing 2 verbs going at once would be even better; varying with the early reflections and predelays of the 2 to extend the front-backness.

Just to be picky, in this example when the bases come in they're not really behing to other strings for me (where thye "should" be). Maybe a little less dry signal for that instrument would do the trick. But I'm thinking that the 2 verb trick might be the best

In the VSL videos about the SE Christian (I think it was him) talked about using a second verb for the perc. to put them in their place.

What do you guys think?
WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Fri, Aug 01 2008 09:39
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1788

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Aug 01 2008 10:03
by Beat Kaufmann
Joined on Fri, Jan 03 2003, Switzerland/Brugg, Posts 1788

Hello

Sorry but I believe that the upper example is a bad one for testing a reverb.

With long sustained string sounds of a big size ensemble you can't really make out the roomquality of a reverb.

Even if I listen to the dry original I recognize some room components.

 

What we need is a complex mix: Staccatos* with the string orchestra and the wood winds, brass with blaring horns or fanafare trumpets, a big organ at the back of the concert hall, percussion instruments somewhere in the room and a piccolo as a soloist just in front of us for example.

Then let's see whether the bricasti solves this situation brilliantly or not.

Then let's see how the bricasti manages the different depths, the transparency.

Then let's see whether it can produce an "airy" and warm room. 

Then let's compare it with other reverbs. 

By the way: If you want to produce a finalmix "at one sitting" with several stage depths you need to have

more than one bricasti... or am I wrong?   

Beat 

_________________________________________ 

*you can "listen to the room" between the staccatos. 

www.musik-produktion-createc.ch (Konzertaufnahmen, Musik mit Samples)
at www.beat-kaufmann.com : MIXING an ORCHESTRA - TUTORIAL
Posted on Fri, Aug 01 2008 10:20
by jammusique
Joined on Wed, Aug 04 2004, Paris, France, Posts 262
Yes thats right. Bricast is a 2 channel unit. So one stereo reverb. As a side note he new Lexicon PCM96 can do 2 stero reverbs at once, but is reputated a bit less strong on "acoustic space" verbs.

On the Gearslutz forum the mixer of the recent Dark Knight soundtrack used 6 Bricasti's for the mix.

For VSL we could probably get by with just 2 !!
WW complete. MirX Teldex, Cubase, PC
Posted on Fri, Aug 01 2008 16:41
by Revson
Joined on Sun, Mar 18 2007, Posts 42
jammusique_7634 wrote:
On the Gearslutz forum the mixer of the recent Dark Knight soundtrack used 6 Bricasti's for the mix...



Must not be any staccatos in that score.
Posted on Sat, Aug 02 2008 08:38
by Anonymous Joe
Joined on Fri, Oct 13 2006, Posts 229

 I too I'm shopping for reverbs but since good hardwear units like Briscali are out of my reach i had to look at plungins instead.  It
took me a while but i think i finally found something promising.  It's
a hybrid  between IR and algo and the result sounds very natural to my ears. 

You can do a sort of a/b comparison between
Briscali and REFLECT using the same file if you go at the link Beat provided earlier. Download the ''string Boston hall b'' Here:

http://www.gearslutz.com...ricasti-m7-woohoooo.html" mce_href=" http://www.gearslutz.com...ricasti-m7-woohoooo.html"> http://www.gearslutz.com...ricasti-m7-woohoooo.html

And then go on the following link and download the ''Boston hall'' file and tell me what you think?

http://www.virsyn.de/en/E_Products/E_REFLECT/e_reflect.html 

Personally,
i think it sounds very good for a EU 167 plugin. But I'll admit i have no
engineering talent or experience so i really don't know what I'm doing. Which is why i would like your opinion on this.


I really liked the reverb from ArtsAcoustic as well but for different reasons.

I bit more obvious as a reverb but very useful I'm sure. VERY well dome little pluging if you ask me.

edited: I made a mistake. The price is in EU. 

Posted on Sat, Aug 02 2008 08:41
by Anonymous Joe
Joined on Fri, Oct 13 2006, Posts 229
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